RimWorld

RimWorld

Monkstar Jun 9, 2019 @ 9:06am
Psychopaths get a mood loss from cannibalism??
Hey,
so it says in the description of a psychopath character that he doesn't care if colonists get butchered or sold to slavery or anything. But apparently he DOES care if he eats human meat - why, though? What should bother people is the fact that it's a fellow human (which doesn't apply to psychopaths) - the taste shouldn't be extremely different from any other sort of meat (I mean, would it taste worse than rat meat?). So, is this intentional and if so, why?
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Showing 1-14 of 14 comments
Astasia Jun 9, 2019 @ 9:17am 
It's intentional, and probably as a balancing mechanic. Most things about the psychopath trait don't really make sense, which I guess stands to reason since "psychopath" isn't a real thing, it's just a pop-culture label with often contradictory descriptions. As such the game can use it however it wants.
Bozobub (Banned) Jun 9, 2019 @ 9:36am 
Maybe s/he simply finds it disgusting?

Remember, psychopathy does not necessarily imply any other specific psychiatric disorders. IRL, yes, psychopaths are likely to have other disorders as well, but what those disorders are varies greatly, just as the root cause(s) of psychopathy itself does/do.

@ Astasia: False, although yes, the public conception of psychopathy is often way off.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/psychopathy
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mindmelding/201301/what-is-psychopath-0
https://www.healthyplace.com/personality-disorders/psychopath/psychopathy-definition-symptoms-signs-and-causes

And so on. The upshot of it all is, "psychopathy" IS a real disorder, but it's a "catch-all" term for the pathology of many different specific disorders. Very much like the "common cold", which is actually caused by 49+ different viruses with very similar symptoms but is still called — and medically treated as — "having a cold" ^^' . It's not inaccurate at all but it's also misleading.
Last edited by Bozobub; Jun 9, 2019 @ 9:44am
Astasia Jun 9, 2019 @ 10:48am 
This is a quote from the top link you posted there:

"Psychopathy is not a diagnosis in current psychiatric classification systems. It is a subtype of antisocial personality, characterized by persistent, violent offending histories (often with a variety of offence types), lack of emotional warmth or any sense of empathy for others, and deceptive and predatory attitudes to others."

This is a quote from your second link:

"The book that psychologists and psychiatrists use to categorize and diagnose mental illness, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, contains a category for something called “antisocial personality disorder” (APD), while the World Health Organization delineates a similar category it calls "dissocial personality disorder." These are much broader categories than that of psychopathy. The category of psychopath is seen as included within this category, but considerably smaller so that only roughly 1 in 5 people with APD is a psychopath (Kiehl and Buckholtz, 2010)."

So if you go to a psychiatrist they can not legally diagnose you as a psychopath. The label is more of a combination of other illnesses and specific character traits. It is a field of study, and there are checklists and ideas about what psychopathy is and where it fits in, but it's not definite or officially recognized (yet), which is why it's often argued and debated over. At any rate this is something I've looked into heavily in the past when dealing with my own issues and I'm currently on the leading side of the argument that psychopathy simply doesn't exist and is an outdated term to try and describe why bad people do bad things. The people who make a living studying it will obviously try and convince you otherwise, but until it's an officially recognized disorder, it's not.

The common cold on the other hand is a disease defined by the mild (and specific) symptoms caused by hundreds of different strains of minor virus, each of them can be identified and confirmed, the symptoms can be spotted by the inflammation, diagnosis is easy and treatment is easy. A cold is not the effects of the virus on the body, but the reaction the body has to the viruses in an attempt to remove them, as such the individual virus involved isn't the important part of the diagnosis. If the virus expands and symptoms form in other areas, those are a different disease diagnosis, if the sinuses become inflammed that's sinusitis, if the bronchi become inflammed that's bronchitis, all can be potentially caused by the same strand of virus.
Morkonan Jun 9, 2019 @ 12:20pm 
Originally posted by Monkstar:
Hey,
so it says in the description of a psychopath character that he doesn't care if colonists get butchered or sold to slavery or anything. But apparently he DOES care if he eats human meat - why, though? What should bother people is the fact that it's a fellow human (which doesn't apply to psychopaths) - the taste shouldn't be extremely different from any other sort of meat (I mean, would it taste worse than rat meat?). So, is this intentional and if so, why?

It should be easy to figure this out..

Pawns can also be Cannibals. There needs to be some kind of reason for that distinction, right? Right. Psychopathy and Cannibalism have to have distinctive in-game uses to justify their existence in the game.

Originally posted by Astasia:
.... At any rate this is something I've looked into heavily in the past when dealing with my own issues and I'm currently on the leading side of the argument that psychopathy simply doesn't exist and is an outdated term to try and describe why bad people do bad things. The people who make a living studying it will obviously try and convince you otherwise, but until it's an officially recognized disorder, it's not....

A word of caution, here. The process for reviewing classifications and issuing new versions of the DSM is... a difficult one, often involving competing schools of thought as well as external pressure from various groups, professional or not. It is, somewhat, designed by committee... That being said, however, there are generally very clear distinctions that are made which serve diagnosticians well and have value.

However, though it may be sitting on a shelf somewhere in a bookstore in a "Self-Help Health" section, the DSM is not intended to be used for self-diagnosis by non-professionals.

Despite its statistical rigor, psychology is a "soft science." That is changing a bit, in my opinion. (Or should be. 'Cause reasons...:) ) We've had two revision levels of the DSM since I was in college and studying Psychology. FMRI was almost literally "magic" to us back then. Some other diagnostics testing wasn't even a glint in a neurologist's eye, yet. Eventually, as we understand more about what can be measured that has predictive value in diagnosing psychiatric conditions, the DSM will once again undergo revisions that incorporate those "hard" rules for classification rather than the more "soft science" that is currently used. Where applicable, of course - Some things don't have clear "rules."

The process for treating such conditions is, IMO, largely hit-and-miss, with certain general treatment applications showing fairly predictive results, but a lot of outlying issues that defy "the odds." When I was working in a mental hospital, I've seen patients miraculously turn into seemingly completely normal people after a short regimen of treatment and have seen people with the exact same diagnosis (on paper) see little or no improvement from the same treatments. While largely useful, what's written in the DSM requires much more than just the interpretation of the words on the page when it comes to actually diagnosing and treating classed conditions.

That being said, until someone can press a magic button on a measuring device that can return a value worthy of including in a classification scheme, diagnosing and treating psychiatric disorders is something best left to professionals who have to rely not only on diagnostic techniques and indicators, but their own experience and professional judgement.

PS - Standard legally necessary disclaimers include "I am not a medical professional nor am I attempting to diagnose, treat, or advise anyone about any medical conditions they may or may not be discussing, etc, etc... " Don't do Medical Stuffs at home, guys! :)
Last edited by Morkonan; Jun 9, 2019 @ 12:22pm
Minty Fresh Jun 9, 2019 @ 10:26pm 
Originally posted by Morkonan:
Originally posted by Monkstar:
Hey,
so it says in the description of a psychopath character that he doesn't care if colonists get butchered or sold to slavery or anything. But apparently he DOES care if he eats human meat - why, though? What should bother people is the fact that it's a fellow human (which doesn't apply to psychopaths) - the taste shouldn't be extremely different from any other sort of meat (I mean, would it taste worse than rat meat?). So, is this intentional and if so, why?

It should be easy to figure this out..

Pawns can also be Cannibals. There needs to be some kind of reason for that distinction, right? Right. Psychopathy and Cannibalism have to have distinctive in-game uses to justify their existence in the game.

Originally posted by Astasia:
.... At any rate this is something I've looked into heavily in the past when dealing with my own issues and I'm currently on the leading side of the argument that psychopathy simply doesn't exist and is an outdated term to try and describe why bad people do bad things. The people who make a living studying it will obviously try and convince you otherwise, but until it's an officially recognized disorder, it's not....

A word of caution, here. The process for reviewing classifications and issuing new versions of the DSM is... a difficult one, often involving competing schools of thought as well as external pressure from various groups, professional or not. It is, somewhat, designed by committee... That being said, however, there are generally very clear distinctions that are made which serve diagnosticians well and have value.

However, though it may be sitting on a shelf somewhere in a bookstore in a "Self-Help Health" section, the DSM is not intended to be used for self-diagnosis by non-professionals.

Despite its statistical rigor, psychology is a "soft science." That is changing a bit, in my opinion. (Or should be. 'Cause reasons...:) ) We've had two revision levels of the DSM since I was in college and studying Psychology. FMRI was almost literally "magic" to us back then. Some other diagnostics testing wasn't even a glint in a neurologist's eye, yet. Eventually, as we understand more about what can be measured that has predictive value in diagnosing psychiatric conditions, the DSM will once again undergo revisions that incorporate those "hard" rules for classification rather than the more "soft science" that is currently used. Where applicable, of course - Some things don't have clear "rules."

The process for treating such conditions is, IMO, largely hit-and-miss, with certain general treatment applications showing fairly predictive results, but a lot of outlying issues that defy "the odds." When I was working in a mental hospital, I've seen patients miraculously turn into seemingly completely normal people after a short regimen of treatment and have seen people with the exact same diagnosis (on paper) see little or no improvement from the same treatments. While largely useful, what's written in the DSM requires much more than just the interpretation of the words on the page when it comes to actually diagnosing and treating classed conditions.

That being said, until someone can press a magic button on a measuring device that can return a value worthy of including in a classification scheme, diagnosing and treating psychiatric disorders is something best left to professionals who have to rely not only on diagnostic techniques and indicators, but their own experience and professional judgement.

PS - Standard legally necessary disclaimers include "I am not a medical professional nor am I attempting to diagnose, treat, or advise anyone about any medical conditions they may or may not be discussing, etc, etc... " Don't do Medical Stuffs at home, guys! :)

...you do realise RimWorld is a game, don't you?
Bozobub (Banned) Jun 9, 2019 @ 10:33pm 
And? You do realise you're nitpicking kibitzers, right? xD
BitterSwede Jun 10, 2019 @ 12:25am 
So, skipping the diversion, which really should be brought elsewhere, and going back to the topic at hand:

Psychopath means the pawn does not care what happens to other people. As such, it does not care if humanoids are butchered, if dead bodies are lying around, if friends get hurt or even dies. The downside to this is that they also don't care about socialising, and won't get a mood boost for that either. You can see it as extreme selfishness or extreme disregard for other people.

Cannibalism means the pawn likes human flesh, preferably raw. It makes no implication for the pawn's feelings towards other people.

These are two very different traits that have very little in common. It's great if your cannibal is also a psycho, since they can butcher people on-site, but that's about the only connection the two have.
Minty Fresh Jun 10, 2019 @ 5:56am 
Originally posted by Bozobub:
And? You do realise you're nitpicking kibitzers, right? xD

Kibitzer - I had to look that word up.
I like it - I'm going to try and use it in conversation today!
Astasia Jun 10, 2019 @ 10:45am 
Originally posted by BitterSwede:
So, skipping the diversion, which really should be brought elsewhere, and going back to the topic at hand:

Psychopath means the pawn does not care what happens to other people. As such, it does not care if humanoids are butchered, if dead bodies are lying around, if friends get hurt or even dies. The downside to this is that they also don't care about socialising, and won't get a mood boost for that either. You can see it as extreme selfishness or extreme disregard for other people.

Cannibalism means the pawn likes human flesh, preferably raw. It makes no implication for the pawn's feelings towards other people.

These are two very different traits that have very little in common. It's great if your cannibal is also a psycho, since they can butcher people on-site, but that's about the only connection the two have.

It's not really a diversion if the question has been answered. =p

The OP has a point though. The issue people have with cannibalism is a moral one, humans like many animals are genetically predisposed to eating their own when the opportunity comes up and much of very early human history was tribal conflict with the winner eating the loser. Somebody without any moral compass, like the version of psychopath in RimWorld, would logically not have any issue eating human meat. They might not enjoy it much, much like I'm not a fan of pork or lamb, but they wouldn't be naturally disgusted by it to the extremes represented by the mood losses. The cannibal trait on the other hand represents somebody who really enjoys it, to an honestly unhealthy degree, there's room in the game for a middle ground. That said psychopath is already a pretty strong trait if used in a specific way and being able to also eat human meat with no downside would synergize too well and make it too strong.
Bokonon Jun 10, 2019 @ 10:59am 
Originally posted by Astasia:
It's not really a diversion if the question has been answered. =p
It may or may not be a diversion, either way this is the most intelligent and interesting discussion I've seen on any Steam forum. Thanks all for sharing their perspectives!
Last edited by Bokonon; Jun 10, 2019 @ 10:59am
Morkonan Jun 10, 2019 @ 11:33am 
Originally posted by Kulgan from Crydee:
...you do realise RimWorld is a game, don't you?

You do realize that I directly answered the game-related question with an answer specifically targeting the game-related design choices that revolve around characters having personality traits, right? You know, like the game-related reason that certain game-mechanics are in the game and how they are justified as separate, independent, variables.

The rest was a response I believed was necessary.

Hint: It's easy to skip over those sorts of things by not reading them. :)

Originally posted by Astasia:
...That said psychopath is already a pretty strong trait if used in a specific way and being able to also eat human meat with no downside would synergize too well and make it too strong.

^-- This.

However, games need fiddly bits for the player to experience and to manipulate. Those fiddly bits should also help to create unique situations as often as possible that have, or could have, solutions based on game mechanics for the player to explore.

So, Rimworld has a ton of seemingly RNG stuffs in it. One of the almost completely RNG things the player has to often deal with are initial character personality traits. Design would insist that these traits are "value added" things. IOW - They do more than just print a description out on the screen and there are many things in the game that could be impacted/changed by them.

So... Why have a trait that's so practically powerful when you can have two traits that provide many more "value added" gameplay experiences for the player? And, instead of just one trait per character, which Ludeon could have chosen, why not have several, making really complex behaviors and situations exist that the player must deal with?

2(funs) > 1(funs) :)

IMO - Rimworld's "Traits" system is one of the more inspired design choices in the game. It's likely one of the most, if not the most, powerful game-influencing features in Rimworld. It's a sort of "signature" game mechanic. "Pong" has its "paddle." Rimworld has... psychopaths and cannibals trying to get along with nudists and abrasive Alzheimer's patients. :) Any game that adopts a similar Trait system will be likened to "Rimworld" in some way.
Last edited by Morkonan; Jun 10, 2019 @ 11:45am
Bozobub (Banned) Jun 10, 2019 @ 2:59pm 
Of note, you CAN have a Psycopath Cannibal pawn, if RNGeebus (or Prepare Carefully) deems it so, as well as many other trait combos; you aren't limited to one. IIRC, the most traits I have seen on a randomly-generated pawn is 4.

And if you use Prepare Carefully, you can define (or leave random, your call) whatever traits you like for any pawn, so, er... I feel what you're asking for is already directly in the game, both "vanilla" and modded =o.

@Bokonon: Yiddish is *amazing* for such words. In fact, you probably already use a bunch of Yiddish without even realizing it; "klutz" and "chutzpah" are Yiddish, for example.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/yiddish-words/
Last edited by Bozobub; Jun 10, 2019 @ 3:02pm
Bokonon Jun 10, 2019 @ 3:09pm 
Originally posted by Bozobub:
...
@Bokonon: Yiddish is *amazing* for such words. In fact, you probably already use a bunch of Yiddish without even realizing it; "klutz" and "chutzpah" are Yiddish, for example.

...

Oh I know it :) My parents and I (and only sibling) are all atheists, both sides descended from Jewish ancestry. All four of my grandparents were Jewish. I was Bar Mitzvah'd because my dad wanted to make his dad happy.

But others probably learned something ;-)
Bozobub (Banned) Jun 10, 2019 @ 3:27pm 
By the by, "kibitzing" is especially known in tournament chess ("No kibitzers!" xD).
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Date Posted: Jun 9, 2019 @ 9:06am
Posts: 14