are the killbox real necessary?

[Sugar Show]

they shot you, you shot them back.
they stab you, you stab them back.

instead the killbox or "death labyrinth", itself do the same but with less action.

[Dr. Uncredible]

Originally posted by AlP:

Originally posted by SwampDragon:

Come on man, how can me playing a game normally and without mods not be a viable strategy? Keeping wealth down might not be a good strategy for you, just like accumulating lots of wealth and building huge bases isn't a good strategy for me (it seems rather pointless in fact). Both are valid if they work, both are valid if they are fun. I didn't realise this thread had specific criteria for game styles.

Lots of bad vibes creeping in now so time to duck out I think. Good luck with your strategies!

So what happens when you do start accumulating more wealth, or just play long enough? That's right, your colony dies because you don't have viable defenses, and your notions about having an honorable gunfight get all your colonists obliterated.

This is no different from new players that plop a few traps and a line of sandbags, and then post screenshots wondering what they were doing wrong.

In both cases, you can only survive under very specific restrictions, and for a very specific amount of time. Sooner or later, your lack of defenses get your pawns overwhelmed.

Geez, relax sir.
Colonies aren´t meant to last forever, they said they finish the game before raids get to an unreasonable size.
Endless mode is a challenge of it´s own, and not the norm.
Also, though I don´t play like them, they´ve given plenty of samples suggesting they know what they´re doing, and just choosing to play different than you do.

Have a cup of tea and a breather, the fact that you can effectively make your own game and set your own challenges is what makes the game great.

[Morkonan]

Just a general post: The only requirement in Rimworld is for players to have fun and there's plenty of ways to do that. If a player has found their own version of fun that doesn't include certain difficult-to-build-and-plan defensive structures, good for them.

Rimworld has something that many games just do not have in its options - Its difficulty settings are not just "linear." Those difficulty settings include "Storytellers" that are always trying to kill you... and they do it using their own little tricks and advantages. Even Phoebe can be a stingy jerk.

That's something that's difficult for many new players to understand. A "veteran" Rimworld player can look at a post by another Rimworld player and generally tell what difficulty setting and storyteller that player is using, provided it's mostly about "vanilla" subject matter. New players, though, don't have any experience with this particular type of game difficulty setting. So, it's useful to point out what those settings generally are - New players need to understand the context because "game difficulty" in Rimworld is a multi-fold issue. ("Useful," but not critical.)

If a Rimworld player discovers a way that they like to play Rimworld and they find it enjoyable, they are most definitely encouraged to talk about it and tell others... ALL opinions that involve "FUN" are important, no matter what difficulty settings are being applied. I like fun.

(In my opinion, that is. But, I am an Idiot and go to all the weekly meetings... I sit in the back, in case some here haven't seen me there. ;) )

[AlP]

Originally posted by Darren:

You just build more defenses. If you keep say half your wealth in equipped colonists weapons, armour, mines, trap and turrets you don't need a killbox.

A killbox is just more efficient you can get the same results with more investment.

No, a killbox is what allows you to deal with some raids efficiently. That lets you prepare for the next threat that will hit soon enough, and may not come through the killbox.

With a "just build more defenses", you'll spend a lot of time fighting, a lot of time cleaning up, and a lot of time healing. You may still be doing that when the next raid hits. Meanwhile, your pawns will keep getting killed by raids that outnumber them, so you'll be constantly losing manpower.

[AlP]

Originally posted by Dr. Uncredible:

Originally posted by AlP:

So what happens when you do start accumulating more wealth, or just play long enough? That's right, your colony dies because you don't have viable defenses, and your notions about having an honorable gunfight get all your colonists obliterated.

This is no different from new players that plop a few traps and a line of sandbags, and then post screenshots wondering what they were doing wrong.

In both cases, you can only survive under very specific restrictions, and for a very specific amount of time. Sooner or later, your lack of defenses get your pawns overwhelmed.

Geez, relax sir.
Colonies aren´t meant to last forever, they said they finish the game before raids get to an unreasonable size.
Endless mode is a challenge of it´s own, and not the norm.
Also, though I don´t play like them, they´ve given plenty of samples suggesting they know what they´re doing, and just choosing to play different than you do.

Have a cup of tea and a breather, the fact that you can effectively make your own game and set your own challenges is what makes the game great.

They are casual players, that have repeatedly demonstrated lack of any sort of ability to play efficiently. Not the type that has any clue on the necessity of killboxes.

[Silky Rough]

Play efficiently? wtf is play efficiently? I thought people played for fun?

[LIMP BISQUICK]

Killbox are efficient, not required.

[Darren]

Originally posted by AlP:

Originally posted by Darren:

You just build more defenses. If you keep say half your wealth in equipped colonists weapons, armour, mines, trap and turrets you don't need a killbox.

A killbox is just more efficient you can get the same results with more investment.

No, a killbox is what allows you to deal with some raids efficiently. That lets you prepare for the next threat that will hit soon enough, and may not come through the killbox.

With a "just build more defenses", you'll spend a lot of time fighting, a lot of time cleaning up, and a lot of time healing. You may still be doing that when the next raid hits. Meanwhile, your pawns will keep getting killed by raids that outnumber them, so you'll be constantly losing manpower.

Reread my post. I was quite clear. A killbox is more efficient but there are other options that work even if not as efficiently.

Raids scale linearly with wealth. Your pawns don't but you can invest in your defenses linearly with wealth so they stay in line with raids.

I.e. at 100,000 silver 4 turrets and one line of mines. 200,000 8 and two lines, etc.

[This PC]

@AIP: I would support your stance if we were talking about raiding on wow and you were depending on those "casuals", you aren't here, and if anything, playing lean without killboxes is how my ultra elitist friend with 3000+ hours plays. Killboxes are a huge investment to put forward, one that sets you back if your goal is to "finish" your game. If the game ramped up continuously regardless of what you do, then yes, probably that it'd force a killbox as well. The fact that you're so entrenched in your position about supporting them is really an indicator that you're not as expert as you think you are, because I've played a lot in different ways myself and I can tell you they are not necessary, just more efficient ~in the case you have lots of colonists and wealth~.

Feels like you're just butthurt people disagree with you and you're on a quest to restore your honor and prove everyone you're the best. No one cares about your ego man. =)
Especially not on rimworld. :D
I ban colonists who join my colony with attitudes like that before they even cross my defense.
That's another huge vector of efficiency. :D

[AlP]

Originally posted by Darren:

Originally posted by AlP:

No, a killbox is what allows you to deal with some raids efficiently. That lets you prepare for the next threat that will hit soon enough, and may not come through the killbox.

With a "just build more defenses", you'll spend a lot of time fighting, a lot of time cleaning up, and a lot of time healing. You may still be doing that when the next raid hits. Meanwhile, your pawns will keep getting killed by raids that outnumber them, so you'll be constantly losing manpower.

Reread my post. I was quite clear. A killbox is more efficient but there are other options that work even if not as efficiently.

Raids scale linearly with wealth. Your pawns don't but you can invest in your defenses linearly with wealth so they stay in line with raids.

I.e. at 100,000 silver 4 turrets and one line of mines. 200,000 8 and two lines, etc.

There are no other options that "work even if not as efficiently".

Without killboxes, you are playing with a countdown. Like the new players that struggle to get past the first few raids. You just get to play slightly longer. It's that playstyle that is very specific and very limited.

[LIMP BISQUICK]

Originally posted by AlP:

Without killboxes, you are playing with a countdown. Like the new players that struggle to get past the first few raids. You just get to play slightly longer. It's that playstyle that is very specific and very limited.

You don't know what storyteller, difficulty, setup etc a player uses. You also assumed that they'll have colonists who get injured in these raids, even losing some of them to each raid... What's also weird is that you're comparing it to how new players deal with raids, those players are still learning the very basics. It's a poor comparison & I can only think the reason why you used it is to turn the debate in your favor. It would be like me saying people who use killboxes will eventually get overturend cause that is their only source of defense, what happens when it doesn't pan out? It's usually true too, but there are players who know how to manage and use effectively. Darren said could scale defenses with wealth, just spread out, yet the only reasons why it wouldn't work in your opinion is based only cause of your assumptions.

This is entirely dependent on how each player deals with raids. A player has multiple options when spreading out defense. They are most likely fighting in multiple spots.. They most likely have several backup measures, & several options to shift the fights to their advantage. We can even cut out the AI exploits tho it can favor these kinds of setups.. Besides, the majority will have their game come to a crawl with the kind of numbers you're talking about. That's all I have to say about the subject.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Jibbles:

This is entirely dependent on how each player deals with raids. A player has multiple options when spreading out defense. They are most likely fighting in multiple spots.. They most likely have several backup measures, & several options to shift the fight to different area should one spot not pan out. We can even cut out the AI exploits tho it can favor these kinds of setups.. Besides, the majority will have their game come to a crawl with the kind of numbers you're talking about. That's all I have to say about the subject.

I will repeat - sure, keeping your wealth low is perfectly viable option. But main problem that it isn't compatible with having many cool mods, as stuff they're adding is expensive.

Plus it make mandatory to keep some animals as trained cannon folder, because without them even one bandit with single-shot launcher can wipe your colony (and @SwampDragon post an screenshot with example of it). It's obvious for a experienced player, but IMHO you should mention it in topics like this as there can be new players.

So in short - sure, you CAN defend without killboxes. But you should answer on two questions:
1) What you will do with several dozens of enemies that sooner or later start to arrive as your colony wealth AND population is growing?
2) How you will counter raiders with single-shot launchers (preferably - without rely on save/load sniping)?

Killboxes instead have only one unique weakness (as I count sappers & sieges more or less universal threats):
1) How you will deal with drop pod assault?

P.S. Also I think Tynan posted here or on forums that wealth aren't actually impact raid sizes a lot, as it's mostly affected by colony population and passed time plus how well you had defended against previous raid(-s). It was somewhere around latest Beta if I remember correctly. Is anything changed about it?

[Sugar Show]

Let the Raiders be raiders and run away without getting a scratch is a option.

Raiders don't focus destroy build materials as main priority so re-build and repair the base is possible.

I believe you can avoid raids from factions that use single-shot launcher getting them as ally, be enemies of low tech factions (as tribals ) can grant chances to avoid mechanoid raids.

[LIMP BISQUICK]

I will repeat - sure, keeping your wealth low is perfectly viable option. But main problem that it isn't compatible with having many cool mods, as stuff they're adding is expensive.

Nothing changes. My response was kind of geared towards players who accumulate a significant amount of wealth. It includes security defenses.. Players who DON'T use turrets and stuff at all usually have to keep it somewhat low, but they can go a long way.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Jibbles:

Nothing changes. My response was kind of geared towards players who accumulate a significant amount of wealth. It includes security defenses.. Players who DON'T use turrets and stuff at all usually have to keep it somewhat low, but they can go a long way.

O_O

So you're suggesting installing for example mods with advanced bionic and glittertech gear, but do not use their content? Well... It isn't sound like a fun.

Plus again - do wealth management actually work? I'm still remember Tynan words that it almost not doing anything, it's more important to keep low amount of pawns & lose a few of them from time to time in battle. It may had changed, as I don't payed attention to Rimworld for a while, so correct me if I'm wrong here.

[LIMP BISQUICK]

So you're suggesting installing for example mods with advanced bionic and glittertech gear, but do not use their content? Well... It isn't sound like a fun.

Sorry for the confusion but that's not what I'm saying at all. I was responding to AIP, who seems to disagree that you need a killbox and can't spread out your defenses such as turrets to survive the big raids.

Plus again - do wealth management actually work? I'm still remember Tynan words that it almost not doing anything, it's more important to keep low amount of pawns & lose a few of them from time to time in battle. It may had changed, as I don't payed attention to Rimworld for a while, so correct me if I'm wrong here.

I don't know the behind the scenes stuff. It was definitely tweaked but wealth still plays a part. It seems to also take into consideration the other things such pawns getting hurt etc but again, Idk the specifics. All I can say is that the changes to AI favored these spread out defenses, it honestly seems easier than before. Just about every game I did play in 1.0 had raid spikes as my pawns usually don't get hurt. But I'm thinking it does factor in damaged to structures since I usually have some that I don't care about get destroyed. In my experience the raid difficulty was inconsistent & a tad weird.