How to Play Online + Official Discord

[Dave of Powerhoof]

Wait, so crawl *does* support online multiplayer?!

Well, not officially, no.

Not officially?
We're not going to list it as supporting Online on the steam page, but you can actually play it online now, using Parsec!

Parsec basically lets you stream a game, and have friends watch and play along with their own controllers. Latency was my biggest worry, but it wasn't a problem when we played, certainly no worse than our dodgy indie implementation of online multiplayer would have been ;)

We've played a bunch with it ourselves now and had a great time, so we're happy to be able to give it the Official Powerhoof™ Severed Thumbs Up of Approval®!

It's really quick and easy to get it set up, and it's also free if you host games on your own computer!

How to play online:

1. Download the client from http://parsecgaming.com
   
2. Run it and create an account. Get your friends to do the same.
   
3. If you want to host, click "Add A Computer". In settings you can set what apps your friends can see/control too.
   
4. To join a friend who's hosting, add them using their Parsec username, and request to Co-Play.
   
5. Run the game, and friends can play just like they're sitting next to you!

If you have any issues with Parsec, chat to them on their discord here[discord.gg].

Official Discord:

If you need help matchmaking, try asking on the Official Powerhoof Discord[discord.gg]!

Why not add an online feature to crawl itself?

It's a big and difficult feature to try to add. I spent a bunch of time working on it, and the upshot was it just wasn't going to be possible in any reasonable time-frame or budget, or to any decent quality.

If you want to read a bit about why online-multiplayer can be difficult for small developers, this article explains it nicely: http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/11/5491146/why-you-dont-want-an-online-mode-towerfall The upshot from a dev standpoint is that if you're retrofitting online into a game that was built for local, you're gonna have a bad time. (meme not intended)

[Goaliosis™]

how about multiplayer?

[gamename]

The thing is, this idea that lag in online play would 'ruin the experience' compared to couch-play is pretty meaningless to those of us (most?) who rarely get a chance for couch play. I have a bad connection, and lag would be a bigger issue for me than most, but I'd still like to have the *option*. I'm not so fast these days, anyway - would need to play with casual folks anyway.
Not to trash couch-play - it's nice to have both options.

[Marrt]

Originally posted by gamename:

... - it's nice to have both options

No, this would only create tons of threads about the bad network experience, the game would get trashed, something no dev ever wants.

Also, you could always do the remote thing someone mentioned in this very thread, i forgot the name of it. So you kinda have the option, of course, only with people that are willing to join this remote thing

[TALNOVA]

I will only get this game when they put in online multiplayer - personally why not do a 3D version of this in Unity?

[Retrolicious]

Originally posted by Talnova:

I will only get this game when they put in online multiplayer - personally why not do a 3D version of this in Unity?

Just get the game on Nintendo switch. Easily fixed :p

[bussy barnes]

I think that Online would be a nice feature in addition to what this game happens to be but I also think its up to the developers to add it in their own time. If LAN was the only way to play it "online" it still would be excessable "online" with Hamachi.

[schizo]

while im glad this topic was brought up and i love this game, i dont know why this coudn't be made multiplayer i know it might not make it there due to you being tied up in other things or not being able to sustain yourself financially but besides that it seems entirely possible

[Marrt]

Originally posted by schizo:

... it seems entirely possible

No, it is not.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/293780/discussions/0/34095051768030848/?ctp=36#c1488866180606501918

[schizo]

Originally posted by Marrt:

No, it is not.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/293780/discussions/0/34095051768030848/?ctp=36#c1488866180606501918

are you saying its impossible?

[schizo]

Originally posted by mkDILLY:

I do want to say as someone who is familiar with the industry, the technologies involved, and as a game developer, that article is giving incredibly awful advice. Towerfall would have sold substantially more - and I mean SUBSTANTIALLY more - if it included an online mode. Everyone I know was interested in the game but didn't purchase it because they had no way to play it.

Think of it as a platform. Developers are adverse to making a game for the game system with a small install base because it just isn't near as profitable. No one makes games for the OUYA anymore. Making a local co-op game for the PC is akin to making a game for the OUYA right now. The install base is not that much different. With a co-op game, targeting a popular platform is even more profitable, as you often sell 4 copies instead of 1.

What makes this advice even worse is he is comparing Wii Sports to PC games. The Wii was a system specifically designed to sit in a family room area and to be played in a local co-op manner in a family setting on a large TV. That's why it worked. Most PC's sit in a bedroom at a desk with a single keyboard and mouse. Most people do not have their PC hooked up to their TV with 4 available controllers. It's highly doubtful they even have more than one controller or more than a keyboard and mouse or even 4 available usb ports to plug controllers in to. It's highly doubtful their PC is in a good space to even fit 4 people. It's highly doubtful they have a monitor large enough to accomodate 4 players on the screen. It's literally an incredibly small install base we're talking about here (as small if not smaller than an OUYA), compared to a huge install base with an online PC game. It just does not make financial sense to not make the sacrifices to bring such a game to an online platform.

It is also entirely possible to make the game with an online mode. He does illustrate the difficulties very well, but that doesn't mean it is not possible. People have been playing online games for years and are quite used to dealing with and accepting reasonable lag. Towerfall is not a complex game (I could program it quite quickly with the art assets). Not making an online mode was one of the worst decisions the developers ever made and this guy praises it just because it would be difficult and the rather simple game would have to be programmed from the start to accomodate it.

[Marrt]

Originally posted by schizo:

are you saying its impossible?

YES, with a caveat:
If the gameplay stays the same (instant actions without activation delays) then YES, it would be impossible to achieve a satisfying multiplayer implementation of this game for pings > 15ms

Consider this thread: https://steamcommunity.com/app/293780/discussions/0/133261907144538564/?ctp=12#c1488866180609501053

If you argue against that conclusion you will have to show us how we can solve the mentioned example without adding delays:

- Game is Crawl
- Client-to-Client Ping is 100ms
- Player 1 slashes Player 2
- At the same world-time, Player 2 combat-rolls
- Player one needs 100ms to see the roll, the hit will therefore show as registered, blood will show up and the hit sound will play
- Player two needs 100ms to see the attack, he will be in his invincibility frame as he sees Player 1 slashing it

What now? Does Player 2 receive a hit? Does the blood Player 1 witnesses suddenly vanish? What will the health Bars show? Will the game do rollbacks? Will impact feedbacks always be delayed? This is UNSOLVEABLE without adding delays like Battlerite does which would change the gameplay of Crawl. I would be fine with that.

[schizo]

thats the same problem you have to solve with literally every online pvp game ever. theres rolling in dark souls with a small window of invincibility, in overwatch mcree has a roll with total invincibility, also theres a character called tracer with a "blink" ability that allows her to dash in any direction faster than the eye can see but they still were able to make it work tracer can siill run into bullets mid-blink, mcree isnt invincible to explosives while rolling and im not sure what from software did to balance darksouls pvp but they did. of course people with bad ping arent going to be able to play online without rubber banding, ghost hits, and many other issues i know this because i used to be one of the people with upwards of 200 ping on average. but even if it is very difficult, which was never in question in the first place, it is far from impossible. if every game dev decided to not make a multiplayer game because "the different players wouldnt sync up all the time and it wouldnt work perfectly" there would be no online pvp games out there today. i looked at your link and its a lot of the same thing, you are mistakingly thinking of difficult and impossible as synonyms which obviously they are not. Of course its going to take some work on the devs part and is definitely going to be difficult as well but not impossible in the least.

[Marrt]

Again: It is impossible to add multiplayer to Crawl without lag destroying the whole experience.

Please adress the very problem i described, you don't even need programming skills, just a grasp on how delayed information results in different visuals (consider using paragraphs, these blobs are hard to read).

Dark Souls uses looong wind-up times, Crawl is instant. Also, dark Souls still has some serious problems when is comes to netcode, and i never had a fight where the lag wasn't noticeable.

Overwatch is a Shooter, it suffers from the same problems as any other shooter (getting hit behind walls and what have you).
When you are flanking with Tracer you have to deliberately anticipate your opponent turning around because if you try to react to his visuals you are too late, he is already shooting you on his client (client side hit detection greets you).
Or what about roadhog's hook? A delayed ability with clear indication and consequences, and still it causes all sorts of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ calls. In Crawl almost every action is as clear and visible as that hook

The first person view hides most of these problems very well, you dont have clear bullet trails, you cannot see accurately where people are aiming at and melee distances aren't obvious, but this is CRAWL. A Top-down game, with a very clear representation of a game state. Like platformers (remember that towerfall article?).

The best you can hope for is something like Brawlhalla, but imagine CRAWL with induced input delays and rollbacks... Have you ever played Tekken online?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Brawlhalla/comments/3lf75x/what_netcode_is_does_brawlhalla_use/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/291550/discussions/0/617319460923516233/?l=portuguese

It would be better they create an entire new game with completely different combat mechanics: CRAWL-Online

Show me a single online top down PVP game with instant actions that yields consistent online experience.
- Online
- PVP (Coop is not PVP)
- top down (First Person is not Top Down)
- instant actions (skill activations <100ms)

Good Luck.

[Retrolicious]

^

I know is super old and ancient by now, but Diablo2 online pvp worked perfectly. There were alot of hardcore permadeath leagues going on. And yes a death with a barb at 5000 hp could have happened in a split second.

Hell even fans managed to bring nuclear throne towards online, even though the dev denyed it for so long.

Heck even DS got online mode, DST works formidable as a coop experience and it is indeed top down. Yes the pvp in DST is crap, but that is only because the fight mechanic was designed towards raids and PvE boss contents. Basically the avatars are not balanced towards pvp only wolfgang and wigfrid are good at it.
You just had to play DST forge mode. That worked super smooth and there was no lag or latencys. And the Grand boarrior could have killed you in a split second with his crazy jumps and charge attacks. Precise control and 0 lag were vital for the Forge minimode.

You all nerds in this thread talk about too much fantasy. Anything is possible nowadays in the age of the internet with correct capital and manpower. But it's understandable that indie devs got limited time / knowledge / willpower to take huge obstacles. Crawl is still a cute game especially on nintendo switch though.

For crawl steam was always the wrong platform. Steam is a failing platform for couch coop.
That is the sad but simple truth.

TL;DR:
All you naysayers talk ull.sh.it. Anybody knows this and no need to post redundant "IMPUSSIBUL i is dev fanboy" posts. You guys are just blinded by ignorance and inexperience.
It is perfectly viable to bring Crawl towards online, but nobody can be arsed or wants to do it.
This game is too niché so neither the dev nor hardcore fans did even attempt to do online mode.
Why? Because this game got no steam workshop mod support and the playerbase is like non existant. Yes i like crawl as a gem game, but it's more a "tech demo and innovative art" than a full blown multimillion dollar idea.

It's a special interest game with very narrow audience Even narrow minded and inexperienced fans. Huehuew dat meme.

[Marrt]

As you said, Dont Starve Together has slow enough gameplay to hide most lag problems, also, at best the pvp in this game is a game of tag, so why do you even mention it?

(beware of ♥♥♥♥♥♥ music in videos)
01:20
https://youtu.be/tMjcToqb_8I?t=80

Diablo 2... well, if you guys call this "worked perfectly" i start to understand you. Look at this crap, nothing reads, nothing is consistent no viable builds without teleport, it is not pvp, it is pvl (player vs Latency), it is pure cancer:

00:58
https://youtu.be/2q0gqFv98kc?t=58

02:17
https://youtu.be/vQptYomFexU?t=137

7:58
https://youtu.be/RcfDuPTybsI?t=478

So please stop refering to other games if you have no good example, solve the problem described here or leave:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/293780/discussions/0/34095051768030848/?ctp=37#c1694917906667896505
If you succeed in coming up with something, you will understand that this something entails delays or rollbacks of some sort which would change the game itself. If you dont even try and post another rant about how some completely different game solved latency i can only recourse to insults, since that is the only thing you might actually read and react to.