Regarding Saboteurs

[Fractal]

Is there a general consensus on whether it is better for a Saboteur monster to have only Deprotect, Deshell, and Imperil, as opposed to the whole gambit of debuffs (Pain, Painga, Fog, Fogga, etc.)?

And just how much damage do Saboteurs do compared to COM's and RAV's? Shouldn't their sole concern be getting their debuffs up ASAP?

Lastly, I don't understand why the Black Chocobo build on the monster faq has Siphon Boost II. It doesn't have any Siphon abilities...

If anyone can clarify any of this for me, I would really appreciate it. Thanks!

[Scarlet Crusade]

Originally posted by Kebess:

From my understanding, Stagger Maintenance can be applied after staggering aswell. I can't check and confirm it right now in game, but I'd very surprised if it couldn't. Have you checked this?

Yes, I've used the ability before, and it's only the one who delivers the hit that Stagger Maintenance is accounted for. Which is why Stagger Maintenance with Quick Stagger on a RAV is the best use of that ability because Quick Stagger helps ensure that it is the RAV that scores the staggering blow to make sure the extension takes hold.

Originally posted by Kebess:

Also, you can start the fight with the SAB monster, and switch to a different monster after the Auto-ability is cast. The buff stays.

This is true, but it is equally true for other monsters as well. I use a Yakshini with Auto-Haste, Auto-Bravery, Auto-Faith, and Auto-Tetradefense to start, let her pop an En- spell if necessary, and then swap over to whatever else I need.

[Kebess]

I see. I've been staggering wrong half the time then. I do have Quick+Stagger Maintenance on the Blue Chocobo, but it wasn't really to max out Stagger maintenance in that manner. Many times, I did switch to 3xSAB to debuff during the Stagger round.
I didn't see any noticeable difference on the stagger length, so I must have assumed it did work after staggering as well. Still, I'm gonna have to recheck this when I get time.

I would use the Yakshini in that way, but I simply don't have a free spot in my pack for it just for that. One shouldn't over-estimate Auto abilities neither, they only last a minute or so after all.

I'd still go with Auto-haste or even a Resist passive (Elements, Resilience, etc..) instead of Feral Speed. Another passive that can be particularly useful in this case is Feral Surge, it will necessary net more damage than Feral Speed.

[Scarlet Crusade]

Originally posted by Kebess:

I would use the Yakshini in that way, but I simply don't have a free spot in my pack for it just for that. One shouldn't over-estimate Auto abilities neither, they only last a minute or so after all.

You're not wrong, but Yakshini is also capable of restoring those buffs quite effectively, along with Boon, and its Feral Link which is one of the best in the game, in my opinion. I love Yakshini.

Originally posted by Kebess:

I'd still go with Auto-haste or even a Resist passive (Elements, Resilience, etc..) instead of Feral Speed. Another passive that can be particularly useful in this case is Feral Surge, it will necessary net more damage than Feral Speed.

Can you infuse Feral Surge? I think that one's only red locked on the monsters that have it. I'll admit I fall back on Feral Speed II a lot if I don't have anything in particular I feel would be super useful for a spot, because I've had spots where I wish I had the Feral Link ready and it wasn't, so it's just something I like putting on. I'm not saying it's the one true answer or anything, I just personally like it.

[Kebess]

I love Yakshini.

I love Chichu ;)

Regarding the best FLs, I go with Cloudburst's and Goblin Chieftain's. I haven't found any better combo for tough fights. They are also very good at what they do (chaining and tanking).
I just don't have a use for a SYN at this point to be honest. I use FLs to buff, usually.

Can you infuse Feral Surge?

Good remark. It seems, no.
So either an Auto-ability, a Resist, Resilience, or Pack mentality,... I really don't like Feral Link on the Black Chocobo because of how little damage its Feral link does. I'm even wondering if simply casting Wound wouldn't actually do more damage in many situations.

I'm not saying it's the one true answer or anything, I just personally like it.

Okay.

[Fractal]

You guys both make excellent points. It's pretty clear you both are seasoned players, so I really appreciate your advice.

Scarlet, I agree that Stagger Maintenance is better suited to a RAV, especially since I usually run triple RAV's when trying to stagger an enemy. But even if you pair it w/ Quick Stagger, there's still a decent chance that Serah or Noel will land the staggering blow instead. I generally prefer the reliable passives that are always active over ones that only work sometimes.

Kebess, I agree that Feral Speed II isn't really ideal for Black Chocobo. I see FSII on so many builds on the monster faq, and personally I think it's kind of overrated. Within the scope of a battle, it really only amounts to 2-3 extra FL's. That's why I only include it on monsters with amazing FL's, like Goblin Chieftain, Cloudburst, and Yakshini.

Scarlet makes a good point against Auto's. Since they only activate if you start the battle w/ that monster, they're really only ideal for SYN's.

I guess that leaves Pack Mentality, Resist Elements +30%, or Role Resonance. If a triple SAB paradigm does in fact increase debuff duration/success rate, then that would make Role Resonance pretty good for Black Chocobo. If not, then I'll probably go with Resist Elements since there would be no reason to run triple SAB's.

[Fractal]

On a different note, do either of you have any thoughts on a MAG Gilgamesh build?

The way I see it, Excalipoor pretty much nullifies 2ATB's. So even though his STR is a lot higher, a MAG build would probably have higher DPS overall. All the more so given that his casting speed is way faster than his attacking speed. I also feel like Ruin-spam would synergize a lot better w/ his Red-Locked Stagger Maintenance+Quick Stagger combo.

This is the build I'm considering:

Lvl 9 (to avoid Stagger: Wound)

Materials: All-Mana

Passives:
01) Quick Stagger (RL)
02) Stagger Maintenance II (RL)
03) HP +30%
04) Magic +35%
05) Resist Physical +36%
06) Resist Magic +36%
07) Siphon Boost II
08) Chain Bonus Boost II
09) Attack: ATB Charge II
10) Pack Mentality

[Scarlet Crusade]

I've never even considered making a magical Gilgamesh. He seems so physical by nature.

If you can make him cast Ruin all the time somehow, then maybe it could work, and your build looks pretty solid, but having never actually tried this, I don't know if it will really work. While I did use a mix of Power and Potent (I don't rightly remember too well, Gilgamesh was near the end of my journey with the game on console and I haven't gotten him again on PC yet), I do remember his Strength being notably more than his Magic, so Magic +35% may or may be able to tip the scale in your favor. Try it and see, I suppose. I would probably make a backup save in a different slot before you start your infusion, though, just to be sure that the idea works.

[Kebess]

I like your skepticism AHayden, ;) It's good to assume as little as possible in this sort of discussions (in any discussion actually).

Onto the first point:
Does having multiple SAB's in the party increase the success rate of debuffing? Absolutely, and it's actually recommended to debuff exclusively in this manner to maximize effectiveness.

Here's a quick table with the exact increase on the character itself and on its allies:

___Role Bonus Level________Self Bonus___________Ally Bonus____

Starting _______________Success Rate +0%_____Success Rate +5%
Role Bonus Boost I______ Success Rate +15%____Success Rate +5%
Role Bonus Boost II______Success Rate +30%____Success Rate +8%
Role Enhanced Saboteur__Success Rate +50%____Success Rate +10%

Source: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Saboteur_%28Final_Fantasy_XIII-2%29

I didn't find any confirmation on the duration increase of the debuff, but after trying it in game, I can confirm it works as well. You'll have to do some testing with a paradigm like MED-MED-SAB and SAB-SAB-SAB to confirm it for yourself. Try to have the same character apply the same debuff in both decks to have a meaningful result.

Scarlet makes a good point against Auto's. Since they only activate if you start the battle w/ that monster, they're really only ideal for SYN's.

Hum, why only ideal for SYN's?

About MAG Gilgamesh, because of Excalipoor, it turns out you'll indeed get more from him in most cases with a Ruin-based build. His MAG isn't that far behind his STR though (about 30-35% more STR with a Potent build) and using Mana components will naturally decrease this difference as well. Once you add the +35% MAG passive, he'll surely have more MAG than STR.

Your list of passives for him is good as well. I'd go for Role Resonance instead of Pack Mentality on this one, though. Just so that you don't necessarily have to fill your pack with only humans (not even sure if that would trigger the passive, I haven't tried). You'll most certainly use COM-COM-COM at some point in pretty much every fight, which guarantees its usefulness.

[Kebess]

I would also replace HP+30% by Feral Link II or Pack Mentality (if it actually works). Gilgamesh is already a bag of HP so he can do without that extra boost.

[chrcoluk]

my general opinion is having less skills is superior, else they suffer same issues as syn's.

The only time I really used a monster sab in this game is the first caius fight to get poison on him, from the monster you can catch in 005af.

[Scarlet Crusade]

Originally posted by Kebess:

Scarlet makes a good point against Auto's. Since they only activate if you start the battle w/ that monster, they're really only ideal for SYN's.

Hum, why only ideal for SYN's?

My personal reasoning is that the purpose of a SYN is to buff, so it makes sense to put all the auto skills on the SYN, because that's what they're made for anyway, and their passive slots are best put to use that way to free up more apt abilities to optimize COM/RAV/SEN.

[Fractal]

Thanks so much for that data on triple SAB's success rate, Kebess! :)

Originally posted by Kebess:

Hum, why only ideal for SYN's?

SYN's are all about building momentum imo, which is why I think they're the best monsters to start a tough battle with.

But speaking of SYN's, I'm trying to find an optimal Sazh build in order to use Pack Mentality on V.Lightning and Valfodr.

It seems aggressive players like to keep Sazh at level 16 to prevent him from learning any defensive buffs. But I have some doubts about the viability of an augment-oriented Sazh build due to its awful stats. I think this more or less how one would build it:

Lvl 16 (to avoid Protect)

Materials: All-Mana (pretty sure All-Potent is out of the question w/ only 16 levels)

Passives:
01) Augment Maintenance (RL)
02) Item Collector (RL)
03) Feral Speed II (RL)
04) Auto-Haste
05) Auto-Tetradefense
06) HP +30%
07) Magic +35%
08) Auto-Bravery
09) Auto-Faith
10) Resist Physical +36%? (unsure about this one; also considering First Strike)

Actives:
-Vigilaga
-Boon

Even WITH these passives, Sazh's MAG barely breaks 400 and his HP is in the low-mid 3000's. Level 16 also limits him to Augment Maintenance instead of Augment Maintenance II, and I'm pretty sure you can't infuse AM II.

I had to purposely leave out Bravega and Faithga from the actives, since the last thing he needs is even shorter buff duration. Vigilaga is only there to hopefully prevent him from casting 3x Vigilance.

Even for an augment-oriented SYN, this build seems incredibly fragile. God forbid should you have to bring him out a 2nd time (w/o his Auto's), it's probably Game Over. And yet, with such low MAG, you'll probably have to. I hate defensive SYN's as much as the next guy, but this just seems crazy.

Edit: Also... 5ATB's tops, and that's IF you forego SYN Boost I.

[Scarlet Crusade]

At the end of the day, Sazh just isn't very good; Yakshini outpaces him in basically every regard.

Yakshini lacks Augment Maintenance II (which you're right, you can't infuse this... you can't even infuse Augment Maintenance I), but this is okay, because her Feral Link more than makes up for it, especially if she knows Boon, and it also frees up a slot to use for HP+30% to make up for Yakshini's otherwise pretty low HP, being able to enjoy this in addition to both Resist Physical/Magical +36%.

Of course, we're neglecting to mention that Purple Chocobo is basically the ideal SYN in almost every respect. If Purple Chocobo had Yakshini's/Gahongas's Feral Link, it would be godlike.

If you didn't know, by the way, Pack Mentality is like Role Resonance in that it is only a damage modifier. It would not benefit Sazh in any way except for making his Cold Blood do more damage, but that's not its purpose at all to begin with. To me, it wouldn't really be worth it to include Sazh in a Pack Mentality paradigm setup for this reason. You'd be much better off using Snow, as Pack Mentality would make his Sovereign Fist all the more powerful.

[chrcoluk]

Sazh late game is nothing to shout about but what is worth mentioning is he is unique.

He is the only syn that has both bravery and faith (wuth no other skills) AND 4 atb. Meaning he only needs 2 turns to get both on both allies. Or 1 turn to get on one ally. Plus his item collector was useful on the consoles.

I agree on yakshini but I think which i sbest monster to use for buffing depends on the situation, for mobs, you want someone like testudo or sazh. For boss's, monsters that can buff via feral links are better, like yakshini and goblin chieftan, purple chocobo is ok for both but not great. I would only use purple chocobo over testudo if you need a enbuff, or longer durations.

[Fractal]

Yeah, Yakshini is amazing. Her only downsides are Veil and no Pack Mentality compatibility. Purple Choco has no Veil and is PM compatible, but its FL sucks and it casts slower.

I tried out Lvl.16 Sazh and he's actually a lot sturdier than I thought. The Auto's help A LOT; I underestimated just how much defense they add. The enemy gets at most one hit by the time he's done buffing, and Sazh loses a smaller portion of his health bar than either Noel or Serah.

However, you have to be careful if you need to switch him back in. If he gets hit without any defensive buffs up, it's pretty much a OHKO. This means Noel or Serah has to apply defensive buffs ahead of time, just before the offensive buffs start to run out.

Fortunately, most enemies will be dead or near dead by the time his buffs wear off. Overall, the pack works extremely well b/c V.Lightning and Valfodr are tanky and can take a lot of hits even after Auto-Tetra wears off.

Pack Mentality makes a very noticeable difference on V.Lightning b/c of her Uncapped Damage. It also makes a sizeable difference for Valfodr b/c of his Weak Spot+Fel combo, though foregoing PM on him for extra defense is just as good.

In conclusion, I would say that the added damage makes up for the disparity between Sazh and Yakshini. This disparity is really just a matter of "room for error." Yakshini is safer/easier to use since she does not require defensive buffs beforehand when switching back in. As long as you are smart about when/how you switch Sazh back in, an aggro Sazh build will be more effective than Yakshini due to PM.