Need ending clarification

[POOPER]

I have one specific question: Why did the team decide to destroy orphan when all along they tried to keep it from being destroyed by the cavalry?

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Considering the fall of Cocoon was what the Fal'cie wanted, yes, there would have been new L'Cie created to do the job if they didn't. But that's not why they did it. They did it to be free from the Fal'cie. Yes, it did result in doing what Bart wanted them to, but that was the only way to get free.

[tiornys]

As for their "plan" of action after killing Orphan, they were essentially relying on their ability to create a miracle. I'm too lazy to go pull exact quotes, but I believe it's Hope who says something like, "If we have the power to destroy Cocoon, then we have the power to save it!" and Vanille says, "Let's make a real miracle happen!"

On the face of it, this sounds absurd, but its important to keep in mind that this is a group of people who literally just pulled off a miracle. They know they have a great deal of personal power, and they know they have divine backing. "Rational" and "realistic" thinking don't really apply in their situation (and they're not really the type to coldly reason things through in any case).

[😎Macula😎]

To me impression was that both sides suffered one side oblivious of reason while other side wasn't.

[Larry]

There wouldn't have been l'Cie created to "do the job." You forget that the only way Cocoon was brought about the way it was was because of the Pulse Fal'Cie branded your group to start this whole event to begin with. The Cocoon Fal'Cie blatantly state they can not brand anyone to destroy Cocoon, that only Pulse Fal'Cie can do this because they're at war. The only Fal'Cie that could do that was the one on Cocoon. Considering all human life on Gran Pulse is seemingly extinct... There's no way other l'Cie could have possibly been created to do the job.

The game just had an extremely bad story that makes zero sense. After Chapter 10 they dropped the ball. Don't try and delude yourself into thinking there's some deep meaning behind anything after chapter 10. There isn't.

[Larry]

The thing is they couldn't or can't get anyone else to do it. If they could they'd be waiting hundreds of years for such an event to even have a chance to come to pass. Also i'm pretty sure it was stated no normal humans could kill Orphan, it literally had to be a l'Cie which is why Barth wanted the l'Cie to kill him knowing the Cavalry wouldn't be able to do it. You seen what happened to all the soldiers as you neared Orphan: He could do that to them too but if you're already branded with a Focus there's nothing they can do other than have you killed by non magical means outside of direct combat but given the Pulse Fal'Cie was destroyed... There's no other Pulse Fal'Cie around on Cocoon to brand a human to turn them l'Cie thus there's absolutely no way for them to kill Orphan.

The whole story was just thrown together. For one they state the Cocoon Fal'Cie can't kill themselves or order others to do it; they're bound to the word of the maker or whatever. Yet they can set in motion and protect those who would kill them, set free the army of the Arks on their own area of governance, going so far as to say "Yes, we want you to kill us but we're gonna have to fight you." Eh... what? No sense was made as soon as Barth opened his big fat mouth to say "I want you to kill us." It made no sense. It was the most stupidest plot twist in existence.

[Blastom]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ICannotSelfTerminate
Think of the Fal'Cie as being like AI's, they can't go against thier primary programming, and they cannot kill themselves.

[Improper Use]

I thought it was a good example of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination
Note how the Fal'Cie all steer you towards religion and 'god(s)'
Palpatine looks like a catholic priest.
Churchish music played.
Cross symbology
Glyphs (typically used in religious icons)
And I'm pretty sure there would be some buddist and islamic symbology in there as well.
Lots of white.

And we have a predestination issue conflicting with free will.
In the end like all fate plots, they do it anyway.
Usually the rational of justifiying the lack of choice with fate is the ability to choose your reasons if not the actual action.
So while the Fal'Cie forced their 'will' on our heros, in the end they chose because they had reasons.

and finally you could simply say they got angry enough at that point to not turn away. Which is another good example of stacking pressure to achieve an outcome despite the inclinations and intent of others.

[kaay]

Originally posted by Dr.Larry:

The whole story was just thrown together.
[....]
It made no sense. It was the most stupidest plot twist in existence.

Exactly, the plot was never intended to make any sense at all and its pretty obvious from the start.
From the very begining the story was bad, and in 13-2 it goes way and beyond bad, it goes boldly into stupid territory. In Lightning Returns its like the story writer aknowledged his own mess, the story in LR is just an attempt to erase it all.
I feel really sorry for anyone who took the story seriously even for a split second.
The FF13 series has some very good qualities but story is definitely not one of them, there is no story really, its just a placeholder, a marionette-show, a make-believe.
The story can be compared to a magician pulling stuf out of his hat on the scene....thats no story, its just a show.
The one and only thing that bothers me is that they were able to get away with this grotesque joke of a story and many people actually took it seriously instead of laughing at it.

I think the story writer deserves a game item as a prize for his work, and the 10 year toilet paper coupon would fit perfectly.

[kaay]

Originally posted by tiornys:

As for their "plan" of action after killing Orphan, they were essentially relying on their ability to create a miracle.

Nah, heroes dont need a plan, remember?
Just kill orphan and we'll think of something once the planet starts falling, why break our heads now.

Originally posted by tiornys:

On the face of it, this sounds absurd, but its important to keep in mind that this is a group of people who literally just pulled off a miracle.

It sounds absurd because it is. If these people were powerful enough to destroy Orphan and they considered themselves capable of "miracles" and wanted to protect their planet and their people, it would have made sense to leave Orphan alone and start working on a way to achieve their goals without bringing the planet down :P

Lets face it, the story was very weak in FF13 and sadly its actually the best in the series because the story only goes downhill from there.
FF13-2 was downright ridiculous: after Light looks for Serah a whole game that ends with killing someone that wanted to be killed, now its Serah looking for Light the whole game that ends with killing someone that wanted to be killed.....seriously they could and should have done a bit better than that.

The story in this series relies too heavily on Deus ex Machina, which is a style of story-telling that got old even in antiquity.

[Improper Use]

What rabbit are you talking about kaay?

Dues ex machina is when a story ending is suddenly explained by introducing a totally new and before unintroduced thing/person/stuff.

We all knew the Palpatine was the baddie as he was/is the leader of Pulse. We saw the Purge and its effects, the story attempted to build sympathy with those against it. Strangely enough our main characters were dead set against it. I bet if they were you, you'd be saying to yourself; now where is the boss of all this so we can thump im into dust!

And wallace! He appeared, strangely enough, on the bridge of the big mofo flying boat that our heros spent over two hours smeaing its innards with viscera.

Then, Bang!
Big evil dude.

Orphan is a plot device, not a villan. Orphan could of been a nuke with Freddy Whiterobe holding a dead man trigger. Fortunately in the Final Fantasy Universe, we can fight nukes!

... Though you are right, the game is a bit of a theme park.

[kaay]

Deus ex machina is a term that comes from ancient theater plays, when a "god" was brought on the scene from above, by means of some mechanical device. That god was usually miraculously solving the plot or destroying it.
Thats exactly what FF does, Etro comes out of nowhere and saves the heroes, then she is killed, but no problem, another god (Bunivelze) will be introduced (also out of nowhere) to take her place.

FF13 left questions unanswered (or at least partially answered if you do all quests and get the small snippets of ancient lore).
Who or what exactly were the fal'cie, who created them, when and why.
Why did they want to bring their creator back and who was this creator.
Why did pulse and cocoon waged war? What was the role of the fal'cie in that?
What is the connection (if any) between pulse falcie and cocoon falcie.
If Hope was able to build a fal'cie, it means the whole fal'cie focus and crystal stasis was just technology, so why need the divine intervention of a goddess to remove that?

Actually the story in FF13 had the potential to be very interesting if it expanded on the elements it hinted at but sadly...the whole 13 story and the fal'cie-l'cie thing was abandoned unexplained and instead they introduced a steaming pile of paradox nonsense in 13-2.
With this paradox trick, the story-teller freed himself from the shackles of common sense and was free to do whatever.
Thats when characters are "pulled out of the magician's hat". They are dead, no they are alive, no they actually never existed, then they were killed, oh wait here they come again.
Doesnt make sense? Thats because its a paradox you silly players, not supposed to make sense duh.

FF13 series does not make any sense, it does not even bother to explain its own universe and lore, it contradicts itself quite regularly and most plot twists seem to be pulled stright out of the story-tellers behind. Thats why i think he deserved the 10 year toilet paper coupon...actually he not only deservs it, he also NEEDS it.

[Improper Use]

ahh so you were referring to the entire xx13 story, and not this game.

since this is the ff13 forum and you did not introduce a change of topic I simply assumed you had gotten confused.

thanks for clearing that up. and fair enough, coupons for enix it is.

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Originally posted by kaay:

Deus ex machina is a term that comes from ancient theater plays, when a "god" was brought on the scene from above, by means of some mechanical device. That god was usually miraculously solving the plot or destroying it.
Thats exactly what FF does, Etro comes out of nowhere and saves the heroes, then she is killed, but no problem, another god (Bunivelze) will be introduced (also out of nowhere) to take her place.

FF13 left questions unanswered (or at least partially answered if you do all quests and get the small snippets of ancient lore).
Who or what exactly were the fal'cie, who created them, when and why.
Why did they want to bring their creator back and who was this creator.
Why did pulse and cocoon waged war? What was the role of the fal'cie in that?
What is the connection (if any) between pulse falcie and cocoon falcie.
If Hope was able to build a fal'cie, it means the whole fal'cie focus and crystal stasis was just technology, so why need the divine intervention of a goddess to remove that?

Actually the story in FF13 had the potential to be very interesting if it expanded on the elements it hinted at but sadly...the whole 13 story and the fal'cie-l'cie thing was abandoned unexplained and instead they introduced a steaming pile of paradox nonsense in 13-2.
With this paradox trick, the story-teller freed himself from the shackles of common sense and was free to do whatever.
Thats when characters are "pulled out of the magician's hat". They are dead, no they are alive, no they actually never existed, then they were killed, oh wait here they come again.
Doesnt make sense? Thats because its a paradox you silly players, not supposed to make sense duh.

Etro was in fact called by name in 13, although she is referred to as 'the Goddess' most of the time, and she is even mentioned interferring with l'Cie's focus (Vanille and Fang's, to be precise) out of compassion for the mortals, so it hardly comes out of nowhere. Bhunivelze is also mentioned, although not by name.

As for the questions:
- The fal'Cie were machines made by the Maker, (which actually refers to all 4 gods: Pulse, Lindzei, Bhunvelze and Etro), supposedly for administering the world. In fact they were left without any duties, and ended just looking for a way to bring the Maker back.
- They wanted the gods back because they wanted to reset the world.
- Cocoon and Pulse waged war because the fal'Cie pushed for it in search of the gateway (and the way to open it) to call back the Maker.
- They were orphaned by the Maker, no other connection.
- Spoiler for 13-2 The Proto fal'Cie made itself and powered itself with a paradox, something that has the power to levitate Cocoon. Hope had not much to do with its construction apart from starting the project.

As for the stuff in 13-2 not making sense... that's on you. I understand what's going on, and it does make sense.

[kaay]

Originally posted by KarmaTheAlligator:

Etro was in fact called by name in 13, although she is referred to as 'the Goddess' most of the time, and she is even mentioned interferring with l'Cie's focus (Vanille and Fang's, to be precise) out of compassion for the mortals, so it hardly comes out of nowhere. Bhunivelze is also mentioned, although not by name.

As for the questions:
- The fal'Cie were machines made by the Maker, (which actually refers to all 4 gods: Pulse, Lindzei, Bhunvelze and Etro), supposedly for administering the world. In fact they were left without any duties, and ended just looking for a way to bring the Maker back.
- They wanted the gods back because they wanted to reset the world.
- Cocoon and Pulse waged war because the fal'Cie pushed for it in search of the gateway (and the way to open it) to call back the Maker.
- They were orphaned by the Maker, no other connection.
- Spoiler for 13-2 The Proto fal'Cie made itself and powered itself with a paradox, something that has the power to levitate Cocoon. Hope had not much to do with its construction apart from starting the project.

As for the stuff in 13-2 not making sense... that's on you. I understand what's going on, and it does make sense.

The story in 13-2 makes about as much sense as your post.
Try to smoke less of the bad stuff, will do you good.

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Originally posted by kaay:

Originally posted by KarmaTheAlligator:

Etro was in fact called by name in 13, although she is referred to as 'the Goddess' most of the time, and she is even mentioned interferring with l'Cie's focus (Vanille and Fang's, to be precise) out of compassion for the mortals, so it hardly comes out of nowhere. Bhunivelze is also mentioned, although not by name.

As for the questions:
- The fal'Cie were machines made by the Maker, (which actually refers to all 4 gods: Pulse, Lindzei, Bhunvelze and Etro), supposedly for administering the world. In fact they were left without any duties, and ended just looking for a way to bring the Maker back.
- They wanted the gods back because they wanted to reset the world.
- Cocoon and Pulse waged war because the fal'Cie pushed for it in search of the gateway (and the way to open it) to call back the Maker.
- They were orphaned by the Maker, no other connection.
- Spoiler for 13-2 The Proto fal'Cie made itself and powered itself with a paradox, something that has the power to levitate Cocoon. Hope had not much to do with its construction apart from starting the project.

As for the stuff in 13-2 not making sense... that's on you. I understand what's going on, and it does make sense.

The story in 13-2 makes about as much sense as your post.
Try to smoke less of the bad stuff, will do you good.

Wow, you're going straight for insults. Right, I'm obviously wasting my time trying to explain stuff if you don't care to even try to understand. Sorry for thinking you actually wanted to understand stuff instead of wallowing in your own ignorance. Good day.