Savage Attack vs Vulnerable Attack for 1H only

[Flip]

My Pally uses 1H only, lvl 10, 103 Accuracy. I am trying to decide between three talents to give him now.

Savage Attack: -5 Accuracy, +20% dmg.
Vulnerable Attack: -20% attack speed, +5 DR reduction
1H Talent: 30% grazes converted to hits (tbh I find this less useful as hardly ever graze)

So what do people think for a 1hander, Savage or vulnerable? I am leaning Vulnerable as 5DR is basically guaranteed +5 additional damage per hit as 20% additional damage is not huge for a 1hander. PC crits for about 40 - 55 on average (and he crits often) so that would be between 8 - 10 on a crit and less on normal hits.

[Balzaphon]

both

[Revolucas]

Vulnerable. Savage Attack would be better if you were duel-wielding and a class that had other damage multipliers.

[Flip]

Thanks, makes sense. Appreciate the feedback!

[Kyutaru]

NOOOOO not vulnerable.

Vulnerable has a 20% attack speed penalty. In DPS terms, that's a 20% damage decrease.
Savage Attack has a 20% damage gain. Obvious DPS implication.

This means you do 0.8 damage with Vulnerable, offset by the 5 DR bypass, while you do 1.2 damage with Savage Attack, offset by 5 accuracy.

Savage Attack does 50% more damage than Vulnerable, not counting the accuracy penalty (which is really weird and hard to quantify). If you are using one-handed with no offhand, the accuracy penalty shouldn't matter too much. It may mean a reduction in crits.

So you think 5 extra damage is better than 50% more damage on a one-hand. This is true against high DR enemies wearing plate armor and taking barely any damage. However, against such enemies the 5 DR bypass isn't going to matter much either!!!

Reason being: all attacks deal at LEAST 20% of their damage. DR cannot negate all of it.

So what does this mean??

Savage Attack = 1.2 * 0.2 = 0.24 penetration

Your attacks will minimally deal 24% of their damage against an enemy that can negate the remainder. That's about 3-5 damage per hit with no extra might involved.

But Vulnerable attack only reduces DR by 5. So if the enemy has 20 DR, he now has 15. Meaning your one-handed attack will still have 15 damage negated. You would need to deal at least 19 damage with a one-hander using Vulnerable to see any benefit from the DR reduction. Reachable with enchanted weapons, sure. But remember this comes at the cost of 20% less attack speed, so you are already dealing 20% less damage over time. Since DR doesn't care about how slow you hit, I can't just punch that into the damage minimum but your DPS will suffer nonetheless so you can estimate it as needing to be 1.25 times as much as it currently is or 24 damage per hit. WITH A ONE-HANDER!

But here's the best part! If you're averaging 24 damage, the 20% savage attack bonus puts that OVER 5 extra damage. Meaning even against LOW DR enemies, you do more damage with Savage than Vulnerable.

Then comes in the upgrades.... making your weapon superior makes the bonus provided by Savage Attack ever superior as well. You may even see it begin to penetrate DRs it used to only receive 20% damage on. Yet it benefits Vulnerable Attack markedly less and less, as that DR bypass is not required to inflict SOME damage yet the 20% attack speed decrease makes your newfound higher damage suffer a proportional rate of decrease in effectiveness.



What I'm trying to say is... Vulnerable Attack is amazing for dual wielders and low levels. But it becomes a liability as your gear improves toward end game due to having a multiplicative detriment with a static enhancement, one that dual wielders are happy with because they lack the superior accuracy of one-handers and may graze more often for lower damage even end game. Yet for a single weapon sans shield, Savage Attack becomes better in the later stages because it's a multiplicative enhancement with a small and POTENTIALLY meaningless static detriment. Even against enemies with insanely high deflection scores, you're still going to be grazing less than dual wielders. BOTH of you will have to contend with doing 20% of your damage on grazes but only one of you grazes for more damage overall at a faster attack speed.

This goes doubly for procs. When you use effects like the wizard Combusting Wizards, having that extra attack speed matters more than subtracting a few points of DR.

[vinzi]

Does Savage Attack add 20% before or after reduction.

[Flip]

That makes sense and I appreciate the explanation. Too bad I picked it some time ago :/ If I get a chance will get Savage as well but next char is a dual wielder so makes sense there.

Thanks again, appreciate you taking the time to put all this down, it is very informative.

[Revolucas]

The 20% reduction is additive to the recovery frames. Only Dexterity affects action time. see: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66155-attack-speed/page-2

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SHdaQ8yNSvJhxcqFeP9ykXdua_EsjSAb9ypzPA8Oink/edit?usp=sharing

Two-hand weapons are superior to everything on anything above 15 DR. While duel-wield sabre takes the cake for everything else. One-hand sabre can compete with Two-hand if you are using the ones with the .5 crit mult.

As for procs, only weapons with on-touch spells are stillettos from what I understand. Since they are unique you will only be able to use it for one character.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by ๖ۣۜRevolucas:

The 20% reduction is additive to the recovery frames. Only Dexterity affects action time. see: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66155-attack-speed/page-2

I'm aware, but since recovery time effectively IS action time, it doesn't matter. Action time is minimal frame-wise for weapon attacks already, what keeps you from attacking again is the recovery speed.

Originally posted by ๖ۣۜRevolucas:

Slow two-hand weapons are superior to everything on anything above 15 DR. While duel-wield sabre takes the cake for everything else.

This is known but not pertinent to the conversation. What's being asked is which feat is best for one-handed weapon style.

Originally posted by ๖ۣۜRevolucas:

As for procs, only weapons with on-touch spells are stillettos from what I understand. Since they are unique you will only be able to use it for one character.

There are more on-hit effects than that separate from the weapons themselves though, such as the spell I mentioned Combusting Wounds. These effects benefit attack speed, not damage.

[Revolucas]

I was interjecting actual learning resources for the mechanics for OP, rather then arguing with you. Maybe he would like to know how attack speed is calculated or weapon comparison.

[Flip]

I would like to thank everybody for their contribution to this thread, it has been very informative and has given me a greater understanding of the underlying mechanics. I greatly appreciate the assistance given.