Did I miss something in the ending? (Spoiler Warning)

[Mystic Exarch]

So almost none of our questions actually get answered in the end. Here's the ones that were burning in my mind (in no particular order).

1. Why did the engwithans build soul manipulation machines? It's a far jump from "hey, there are no gods" to "lets rip out people's souls." This connection isn't explained at all.

2. What was Woedica planning on doing with the souls? Hylea told me that she was going to eat them to gain power, but this is never confirmed nor denied. And even so, what then? What is she planning on doing with this power? Thaos is an incredibly ancient mastermind, so you would think he'd of thought this through a little better.

3. How did Thaos keep reincarnating over and over, awaken every time, avoid going mad, and avoid soul entropy? I think explaining how the main villian got there is pretty important.

4. What's Creitum, Ossionus, the Inquisition, Iovara, and all that other stuff from the flashbacks? What does it have to do with this past life of yours, the leaden key, Thaos, and well, everything. It's just a bunch of stuff I've never heard of before and it's annoying to hear about it without a frame of context.

5. How does defeating Thaos "un-awaken" your soul, thus saving you from the insanity Maerwald suffered? In fact, I'm not even sure that's what happened.

6. Who exactly were you in your past life? They hint at a few things, but you don't really find out anything specific. What's the point, then?

7. Why did Thaos want to frame animancers for Waidwen's Legacy?

This ending seems to me like it was extremely rushed. Despite dragging on, and on, and on, it fails to explain anything and wrap up the plot in a satisfying and logical way.

[psychotron666]

Ill try to answer the questions to the best of my knowledge from a single play through.
Anyway:

1. As far as I understand it, in this world all souls are reincarnated. I think they made the machines originally to be able to pick and choose where this soul goes, rather than randomly reincarnating.
They would then re direct the souls of their dead warriors into Animats who protected their holy lands and cities.
I also assume they would redirect souls of ex-leaders into new chosen children of specific families.

2. I dont think it's fully confirmed or not, but i think she was planning on devouring the souls to gain the power (they seem to use souls as a form of currency or power for the gods, there is obviously some power that souls have as they power machines and such), as she was known as the exiled queen, and her followers talk of her coming back to claim her throne of all the gods. Thaos believed that people needed the gods to direct their lives, even though he knew the gods were man-made entities, he believed people need the guidance of the gods otherwise the world will go into an anarchy state.

3. I believe he was able to do so by his knowledge and use of the engwithan soul machines that were made for redirecting souls. He would then reincarnate himself into a new body with all of his knowledge of these machines and his power. This is why we see him jumping into souls of other non awakened's Agent Smith style all the time.

4. The Inquisition is Thaos' cult who follow the gods and Iovara was one of his high priests of their cult, until she left the inquisition when she found out the gods were man made and started a following of people who spread this message and were hunted down by the inquisition.
The flashbacks are of your soul, who was one of the followers of the inquisition, and also a friend or aquaintance Iovara in his/her past life.

They leave lots of the flashbacks open to you the player, as to whether or not you were lovers with Iovara, or just friends, or rivals, in the context of what happened. We know you were tasked to hunt down and spy on Iovara using your connection to her (and it leaves it open to whether or not you tell her you were spying for Thaos), but the end result was that Iovara ended up being captured by Thaos due to your intervention (whether you meant to or not) and executed by the inquisition.

Which is why she asks you why you betrayed her and if you would change what you did, you can give your motives for doing so there, or simply say you dont remember.

5. This one was the vaguest of answers they gave in the game, and i can personally say i didnt catch everything to as to the reason why. I THINK it's because Thaos awakened your previous soul, and your soul was guilty/heart broken or going through a personal purgatory for your betrayal of Iovara when you KNEW that she was right and the gods were man made.
I THINK that souls are awakened because the soul didnt finish a job in their previous life that they are clinging on to, sorta like how a ghost haunts something, but instead the person becomes awakened and that personality tries to break through.
Someone can probably clear this up for me and go into more detail though.

6. This goes back to point number 4. All we KNOW, is that you were a member of the inquisition, sent to spy on Iovara by telling her you left the inquisition and saw the light for Thaos and that ultimately she was captured and you watched her execution.
The game leaves it up to you, role playing wise, as to what your character's motives were and whether you felt you did the right thing or the wrong thing in the end.

They give you the option of simply turning her over because you believed that the gods needed to control the populace (like Thaos believes), or that you were scared of what Thaos would do, or that you didnt think Thaos would execute her/ or that she would repent for her sins and declare the gods righteous.

Basically they were giving flashbacks, and you the player got to mold the flashback into your personal story for your character, rather than the game Devs giving your pre life a set personality and alignment.

7. Woedica hates animancy and sees it as a perversion to nature, and the only thing that could thwart her desire to devour/control souls. The Hollowborn are effect of her desires, she is taking the souls from newborns and taking them out of the cycle, to gain power/gain control over, and Animancy is a key to unlocking the reason behind the hollowborn and as i said, can thwart her plans (as with animancy, you can do the same).
Thaos simply wanted to prove everyone's misconceptions about Animancy (that it was a perversion to nature) by agent smithing into animancers and making them kill people so they would be hunted down.

Anyway, that's to the best of my knowledge. Im sure someone else can touch on some more, but hopefully it answered some of your questions.

[Erei]

psychotron666 pretty much answered, but I'll add what I understood.


1.I understood those were used in the creation of the gods. Using large amount of souls to "create" them, and thus the sacrifice you can see in one of your memory, which is from the "past" life timeline, where a lot of people (men, women and child) willingly sacrifice themselves.
Basically, the 1rst machine you see is a "soul generator/extractor" kind of stuff. People are killed there, souls are taken. The Heritage Hill is mentioned as some kind of transmitter, probably collecting the extractor's souls around, and transmitting them to sun in shadow. Might explain why it's up a tower, like a modern radio or TV transmitter.
Finally, sun in shadow is the main "builder", used to collect all those souls and build the god/empower them.

At least, that was my understanding. But those machines can be used for many stuff. Engwithan did a lot of experiment on souls, and were very advanced. Like trying to take a specific dead soul, and put it on a statue (Caed Nua).

2. Woedica is not only the god of Justice but also vengeance. It was my understanding she was more or less banished by the other gods, and she wanted vengeance over them. Using souls for power.
As for why Thaos choose to help her, I have no idea. Because she represent order, in a sense ? I think they explain it, I just don't remember.

3. Thaos is no common mortal. We are talking of someone who created Gods. That's no mere feat. Also, it's mentioned exceptionally strong soul can remember their past life, and never "diminish" in power. Those souls stay whole across "reincarnation", unlike your average soul. Yours for example.
Not to mention the use of powerful soul science which is now forgotten.

4. Explained above. It's basically your "past" life that was awakened, and you relive flashback when something happen which is rather similar to those memory. For example Thaos words to you after the Duc is killed, which are similar to words he said during Iovara's trial.
That's how awakened soul works. Something unusual happen in your life, which is common to an important past life memory.

5. I remember the Gods giving you an explanation, but it was rather weak. It seems you just make peace with yourself/past yourself, a bit like Aloth if you don't kill him.

6. Same than 4

7. IMO the main reason was the animancer were on the right track to find what was behind the Legacy. It's said several time they are close to find it. Especially the framed animancer in the sanatorium. And not only they would have been able to find the truth, and pose a threat to the leaden key (imagine every nations of the world working together against the leaden key ? Yeah, that's a real threat). But they might also find the truth behind the gods, in the end.




Honestly, I found the endings was appropriate. I'm a bit sad (as in sad story, not as sad they didn't make it that way) there was no "good" choice. No matter what you pick, pain and sorrow ensue. If you bring the soul back, then numerous wicht and "old" hollowborn suddenly "wakes up". And if you don't, then numerous young hollowborn will never be "whole" again. It's the lesser evil.

[Mystic Exarch]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

Ill try to answer the questions to the best of my knowledge from a single play through.
Anyway:

1. As far as I understand it, in this world all souls are reincarnated. I think they made the machines originally to be able to pick and choose where this soul goes, rather than randomly reincarnating.
They would then re direct the souls of their dead warriors into Animats who protected their holy lands and cities.
I also assume they would redirect souls of ex-leaders into new chosen children of specific families.

2. I dont think it's fully confirmed or not, but i think she was planning on devouring the souls to gain the power (they seem to use souls as a form of currency or power for the gods, there is obviously some power that souls have as they power machines and such), as she was known as the exiled queen, and her followers talk of her coming back to claim her throne of all the gods. Thaos believed that people needed the gods to direct their lives, even though he knew the gods were man-made entities, he believed people need the guidance of the gods otherwise the world will go into an anarchy state.

3. I believe he was able to do so by his knowledge and use of the engwithan soul machines that were made for redirecting souls. He would then reincarnate himself into a new body with all of his knowledge of these machines and his power. This is why we see him jumping into souls of other non awakened's Agent Smith style all the time.

4. The Inquisition is Thaos' cult who follow the gods and Iovara was one of his high priests of their cult, until she left the inquisition when she found out the gods were man made and started a following of people who spread this message and were hunted down by the inquisition.
The flashbacks are of your soul, who was one of the followers of the inquisition, and also a friend or aquaintance Iovara in his/her past life.

They leave lots of the flashbacks open to you the player, as to whether or not you were lovers with Iovara, or just friends, or rivals, in the context of what happened. We know you were tasked to hunt down and spy on Iovara using your connection to her (and it leaves it open to whether or not you tell her you were spying for Thaos), but the end result was that Iovara ended up being captured by Thaos due to your intervention (whether you meant to or not) and executed by the inquisition.

Which is why she asks you why you betrayed her and if you would change what you did, you can give your motives for doing so there, or simply say you dont remember.

5. This one was the vaguest of answers they gave in the game, and i can personally say i didnt catch everything to as to the reason why. I THINK it's because Thaos awakened your previous soul, and your soul was guilty/heart broken or going through a personal purgatory for your betrayal of Iovara when you KNEW that she was right and the gods were man made.
I THINK that souls are awakened because the soul didnt finish a job in their previous life that they are clinging on to, sorta like how a ghost haunts something, but instead the person becomes awakened and that personality tries to break through.
Someone can probably clear this up for me and go into more detail though.

6. This goes back to point number 4. All we KNOW, is that you were a member of the inquisition, sent to spy on Iovara by telling her you left the inquisition and saw the light for Thaos and that ultimately she was captured and you watched her execution.
The game leaves it up to you, role playing wise, as to what your character's motives were and whether you felt you did the right thing or the wrong thing in the end.

They give you the option of simply turning her over because you believed that the gods needed to control the populace (like Thaos believes), or that you were scared of what Thaos would do, or that you didnt think Thaos would execute her/ or that she would repent for her sins and declare the gods righteous.

Basically they were giving flashbacks, and you the player got to mold the flashback into your personal story for your character, rather than the game Devs giving your pre life a set personality and alignment.

7. Woedica hates animancy and sees it as a perversion to nature, and the only thing that could thwart her desire to devour/control souls. The Hollowborn are effect of her desires, she is taking the souls from newborns and taking them out of the cycle, to gain power/gain control over, and Animancy is a key to unlocking the reason behind the hollowborn and as i said, can thwart her plans (as with animancy, you can do the same).
Thaos simply wanted to prove everyone's misconceptions about Animancy (that it was a perversion to nature) by agent smithing into animancers and making them kill people so they would be hunted down.

Anyway, that's to the best of my knowledge. Im sure someone else can touch on some more, but hopefully it answered some of your questions.

1. Sounds like pure speculation. not that there's anything wrong with your theory, but it's extremely unsatisfying to pay $40 for a game and not get any clear answers.

2. But if Thaos knows that Woedica is not real, then what's the point of trying to send souls to her? He knows she's not real...

Unless his point was to cause Waidwen's legacy, so that animancers could be blamed for it? That's the only logical answer, but we don't know for sure so it's very dissapointing.

3. Same as 1.

4. Yeah, I see your point but I just don't like those sequences. Like you said, they're really out of context and confusing. And we don't know that much about it, only a few simple details. It takes the player away from what's happening right now in the present world. I found it difficult to care about what was happening.

5. Same as 1. Impressive theory, though.

6. Same as 4.

7. How does animancy threaten Woedica? Animancers really can't/don't do much. Thaos should have been more concerned with Watchers.

Something I just thought of: so do we even know if the gods are real or not? I'm going with yes. How else would their be priests? You even get to speak directly to the gods in the game and view their tremendous power.

So you have Thaos and Iovara who both believe in no gods, and they're wrong. But they disagree on what the common people should be told about it.

All in all I'm very dissapointed. I want to end a game having clear answers. Not speculation.

[Mystic Exarch]

Originally posted by Monsieur Connard:

psychotron666 pretty much answered, but I'll add what I understood.


1.I understood those were used in the creation of the gods. Using large amount of souls to "create" them, and thus the sacrifice you can see in one of your memory, which is from the "past" life timeline, where a lot of people (men, women and child) willingly sacrifice themselves.
Basically, the 1rst machine you see is a "soul generator/extractor" kind of stuff. People are killed there, souls are taken. The Heritage Hill is mentioned as some kind of transmitter, probably collecting the extractor's souls around, and transmitting them to sun in shadow. Might explain why it's up a tower, like a modern radio or TV transmitter.
Finally, sun in shadow is the main "builder", used to collect all those souls and build the god/empower them.

At least, that was my understanding. But those machines can be used for many stuff. Engwithan did a lot of experiment on souls, and were very advanced. Like trying to take a specific dead soul, and put it on a statue (Caed Nua).

2. Woedica is not only the god of Justice but also vengeance. It was my understanding she was more or less banished by the other gods, and she wanted vengeance over them. Using souls for power.
As for why Thaos choose to help her, I have no idea. Because she represent order, in a sense ? I think they explain it, I just don't remember.

3. Thaos is no common mortal. We are talking of someone who created Gods. That's no mere feat. Also, it's mentioned exceptionally strong soul can remember their past life, and never "diminish" in power. Those souls stay whole across "reincarnation", unlike your average soul. Yours for example.
Not to mention the use of powerful soul science which is now forgotten.

4. Explained above. It's basically your "past" life that was awakened, and you relive flashback when something happen which is rather similar to those memory. For example Thaos words to you after the Duc is killed, which are similar to words he said during Iovara's trial.
That's how awakened soul works. Something unusual happen in your life, which is common to an important past life memory.

5. I remember the Gods giving you an explanation, but it was rather weak. It seems you just make peace with yourself/past yourself, a bit like Aloth if you don't kill him.

6. Same than 4

7. IMO the main reason was the animancer were on the right track to find what was behind the Legacy. It's said several time they are close to find it. Especially the framed animancer in the sanatorium. And not only they would have been able to find the truth, and pose a threat to the leaden key (imagine every nations of the world working together against the leaden key ? Yeah, that's a real threat). But they might also find the truth behind the gods, in the end.




Honestly, I found the endings was appropriate. I'm a bit sad (as in sad story, not as sad they didn't make it that way) there was no "good" choice. No matter what you pick, pain and sorrow ensue. If you bring the soul back, then numerous wicht and "old" hollowborn suddenly "wakes up". And if you don't, then numerous young hollowborn will never be "whole" again. It's the lesser evil.

I disagree. I hate the way it ended. Knowing the outcome of all of your choices completely defeats the purpose of making those choices in the first place. I prefer to wonder how it all worked out. That way, they have more weight behind them. If you know that some choice has a bad result, of course you won't make that choice again. So it's not really even a choice. It completely ruins the replay value.

But if they insist on revealing everything, at least make the choices ACTUALLY MATTER. Like you said, no matter what you do it all ends in death and destruction. So what's the point?

And to top it all off, your character's personal ending seems to be the old cliche of "walking off into the sunset".

[psychotron666]

The gods ARE real. It's just that they were made by man first, but they are actual sentient beings now. That's why Thaos is following them, he knows they are man made, but they are stronger and more powerful than man.

Thaos wants the order, and the gods give order. He believes that without the gods, we go back
to a primal state. If that makes any sense, that's at least what i picked up.

Also he wants to stop animancers because they can lead to the answer of where the hollowborn come from, a lot quicker than anyone else (well maybe besides a watcher, but we know watchers are really rare, and he tries to send guys after you to kill you).

I just want to point out too that i wasnt saying any of my theories are fact. They are that actually, theories. Which is why i used words like "think" a lot.

And most good stories have lots of speculation in the endings, rather than hard facts.

Also there's an expansion in the works, we might be seeing a continuation of the story (because nothing really happens to the watcher and the fact that the mages grimoire goes up to level 10 spells, but there are only up to level 6 spells in game) and therefore see some more concrete facts regarding the story.

[Mystic Exarch]

Ok, so it's more like a Planescape type situation, where the "powers" (gods) are created by belief in them and draw power from belief.

I know, and they're intelligent theories. I personally think a good story has a clear conclusion. Feel free to disagree. But I don't want to pay $40 to be unsatisifed. It's like going to a restraunt and getting no food, so you can "speculate" on how good it tasted.

Yeah any company that says "hey, you want to know what really happened? Well then you have to buy an expansion pack" is trying to cheat you. It's a ripoff.

Unless the x-pac is free. It better be free. but even then, that's still a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ thing to do to your fanbase.