Turn Based Would Be Nice But...

[snugginz]

I'd rather have them fix old bugs!
Like no matter what settings I use for my teammates, Defensive, Aggressive, etc, they never use even their most basic abilities listed in the description of those settings. And they never use their per encounter abilities.

So I have to micro manage every teammate every turn of every encounter, which gets cumbersome considering most of the time they could at least spam their per encounter abilities and at least have done SOMETHING automatically to lift a little weight for themselves.

Only solution I have found viable so far is to pick and spec characters with a lot of passives, because at least they're USE those every round without me holding their hands. Oh, and turn down difficulty to normal so basic attacks are enough.

I can't even call it bad AI, when it doesn't do anything (but basic default attacks) at all.

Would LOVE for them to fix this before giving us turn based.

Yeah I still really like the game, but OMG the micro!

[Frostfeather]

I hear you. Though I suppose one could argue that turn-based *is* a fix for the issue, lol.

[snugginz]

Hmm, well it forces more micro I guess. But not what I'd call a fix :(
It will be interesting to see. But teammates that do just a little bit of what they're supposed to on their own would be even better IMO.

I guess we'll see how it turns out.

[Frostfeather]

Well, turn based can be surprisingly quick and convenient. Turn up all the speeds and use hotkeys. Say F1 (Wounding Shot), Space (End Turn), F1 (Flames of Devotion), Space, F1 (Arcane Assault), Space, autoattack, Space, etc. You probably know exactly what your next character is doing, so you can have that hotkey or mouse position ready to go and cycle through turns quickly.

So even though it's "micro", it doesn't really feel bad because it's moving along steadily. And since you can more easily aim area spells, you can use them more frequently and effectively, shortening fights.


Anyway, I'm curious what classes aren't using their abilities for you. I know Wounding Shot hasn't worked right for Rangers since release (unless it was just addressed), but otherwise most classes should be using stuff. They just generally won't use it again immediately if it has more than 1 charge.

[psychotron666]

When the game was released, there was no AI at all for companions. Micro managing characters was just how these games (and the old Baldur's Gate) were made.

Poe 2 has an advanced AI system, if they're bringing in turn based (which Poe 2 has) they might bring that AI in too. In any case if you play on turn based you won't use AI anyway.

[Diomedes]

Originally posted by Frostfeather:

Well, turn based can be surprisingly quick and convenient. Turn up all the speeds and use hotkeys. Say F1 (Wounding Shot), Space (End Turn), F1 (Flames of Devotion), Space, F1 (Arcane Assault), Space, autoattack, Space, etc. You probably know exactly what your next character is doing, so you can have that hotkey or mouse position ready to go and cycle through turns quickly.

So even though it's "micro", it doesn't really feel bad because it's moving along steadily. And since you can more easily aim area spells, you can use them more frequently and effectively, shortening fights.


Anyway, I'm curious what classes aren't using their abilities for you. I know Wounding Shot hasn't worked right for Rangers since release (unless it was just addressed), but otherwise most classes should be using stuff. They just generally won't use it again immediately if it has more than 1 charge.

It isn't, turn based in Pillars 2 took forever with big fights.. And how the game is designed, they will have to make alot of mechanics changes like Pillars 2.. That threw balance out the window. I suspect this is just a experiment, with the possibility of Pillars 3 going into development due to the success of BG3, and the supposed success of Avowed.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Diomedes:

It isn't, turn based in Pillars 2 took forever with big fights.. And how the game is designed, they will have to make alot of mechanics changes like Pillars 2.. That threw balance out the window. I suspect this is just a experiment, with the possibility of Pillars 3 going into development due to the success of BG3, and the supposed success of Avowed.

If fights "took forever", you did something wrong. I know because this is a particular interest of mine in cRPGs where you have the option of turn-based and real-time. If you take steps to make fights faster, you can time the same fight in both turn-based and real-time and they're usually surprisingly close.

At any rate, you'll likely be able to switch modes at any time you're not in combat like you can in Deadfire (using a console command).

[Diomedes]

Originally posted by Frostfeather:

Originally posted by Diomedes:

It isn't, turn based in Pillars 2 took forever with big fights.. And how the game is designed, they will have to make alot of mechanics changes like Pillars 2.. That threw balance out the window. I suspect this is just a experiment, with the possibility of Pillars 3 going into development due to the success of BG3, and the supposed success of Avowed.

If fights "took forever", you did something wrong. I know because this is a particular interest of mine in cRPGs where you have the option of turn-based and real-time. If you take steps to make fights faster, you can time the same fight in both turn-based and real-time and they're usually surprisingly close.

At any rate, you'll likely be able to switch modes at any time you're not in combat like you can in Deadfire (using a console command).

Bigger fights took forever due to how many enemies/entities in the battle.. And using cheats to force real time, is not a solution.. The game was a unbalanced mess in Turn based, with some classes being comically overpowered and others being absolutely abysmal. The game mechanics were never designed around being turnbased, unlike other games like Pathfinder, meaning they had to fundamentally change the game mechanics for classes and combat..
People need to not get their hopes up because this is going to be another experimental mode made by a handful of people, like the second one.
Even Pathfinder fights would take forever if you stayed in turn based the entire time for many of the fodder fights.

[psychotron666]

Originally posted by Diomedes:

Originally posted by Frostfeather:

If fights "took forever", you did something wrong. I know because this is a particular interest of mine in cRPGs where you have the option of turn-based and real-time. If you take steps to make fights faster, you can time the same fight in both turn-based and real-time and they're usually surprisingly close.

At any rate, you'll likely be able to switch modes at any time you're not in combat like you can in Deadfire (using a console command).

Bigger fights took forever due to how many enemies/entities in the battle.. And using cheats to force real time, is not a solution.. The game was a unbalanced mess in Turn based, with some classes being comically overpowered and others being absolutely abysmal. The game mechanics were never designed around being turnbased, unlike other games like Pathfinder, meaning they had to fundamentally change the game mechanics for classes and combat..
People need to not get their hopes up because this is going to be another experimental mode made by a handful of people, like the second one.
Even Pathfinder fights would take forever if you stayed in turn based the entire time for many of the fodder fights.

Big fights in rtwp took forever too because you needed to pause every half second to reissue orders.

Poe 2 turn based was fine. It simply changed dex from being comically overpowered to making perception the better attribute.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Diomedes:

Bigger fights took forever due to how many enemies/entities in the battle.. And using cheats to force real time, is not a solution.. The game was a unbalanced mess in Turn based, with some classes being comically overpowered and others being absolutely abysmal. The game mechanics were never designed around being turnbased, unlike other games like Pathfinder, meaning they had to fundamentally change the game mechanics for classes and combat..
People need to not get their hopes up because this is going to be another experimental mode made by a handful of people, like the second one.
Even Pathfinder fights would take forever if you stayed in turn based the entire time for many of the fodder fights.

If you refuse to take steps to reduce turn-based time, and refuse to use tools at your disposal (like switching modes), then sure. It'll take longer. But you've only got yourself to blame.

The balance isn't bad at all, it just shifts slightly.

And why are you implying people should switch to real time for some fights in Kingmaker yet not Pillars? You're contradicting yourself.

[Diomedes]

Originally posted by Frostfeather:

Originally posted by Diomedes:

Bigger fights took forever due to how many enemies/entities in the battle.. And using cheats to force real time, is not a solution.. The game was a unbalanced mess in Turn based, with some classes being comically overpowered and others being absolutely abysmal. The game mechanics were never designed around being turnbased, unlike other games like Pathfinder, meaning they had to fundamentally change the game mechanics for classes and combat..
People need to not get their hopes up because this is going to be another experimental mode made by a handful of people, like the second one.
Even Pathfinder fights would take forever if you stayed in turn based the entire time for many of the fodder fights.

If you refuse to take steps to reduce turn-based time, and refuse to use tools at your disposal (like switching modes), then sure. It'll take longer. But you've only got yourself to blame.

The balance isn't bad at all, it just shifts slightly.

And why are you implying people should switch to real time for some fights in Kingmaker yet not Pillars? You're contradicting yourself.

Because you literally CANNOT WITH OUT using cheats, the balance of the game is fundamentally different between turn based and real time mode. Multiple abilities and classes play ALOT different in turn based mode, compared to real time with pause.. And no, real time with pause fights do not take incredibly long time even on POTD. We are talking about the fact that there are fights in the game for Pillars 2, in which there are just so many enemies and entities on the map that it takes forever.. Pathfinder's rule sets are not different between the two modes, Pillars 2 IS. Multiple major mechanics do not work any where close to the same between the two modes.

[Frostfeather]

It's not difficult to make a Deadfire group that works great in both real-time and turn-based... and switch between them as desired (which isn't a cheat). Giving yourself 9 billion gold or something is a cheat.

Maybe it would help if you were more specific than "multiple major mechanics". When you look at the differences compared to the scope of the game, they're really not huge. Mostly, you'd only even need to be aware of them if you're building your entire group around a gimmick or something.

[Diomedes]

Originally posted by Frostfeather:

It's not difficult to make a Deadfire group that works great in both real-time and turn-based... and switch between them as desired (which isn't a cheat). Giving yourself 9 billion gold or something is a cheat.

Maybe it would help if you were more specific than "multiple major mechanics". When you look at the differences compared to the scope of the game, they're really not huge. Mostly, you'd only even need to be aware of them if you're building your entire group around a gimmick or something.

Weapon swap is OP af in Turn based mode, the game favors dual wield above all else.. Classes like cipher are abysmal in turn based mode.. Abilities, like dance of death, which weren't very good for melee monks, are now amazing... Turn based mode also made the game way easier due to these mechanical changes, and the AI not doing a very good job. IDGAF if you can make a good group for both, that is not my complaint. They locked the two modes, they were never designed to be played together for this game, because it fundamentally changes the game, HENCE YOU ARE CHEATING to get it to work both ways with the use of the console to your own benefit. I don't understand how this is so hard to comprehend..
This game is not pathfinder, the rules are fundamentally based off the turn based system.. Pillars was built for the ground up as a real time with pause system.. Which is why Turn based mode was only ever considered a experimental thing in PoE2, with numerous flaws and poor balance.

[Frostfeather]

There are plenty of great two-handed and ranged weapons, and they nerfed the dual wield bonus. Cipher, especially Psion, is often better in turn-based. Psion because it's even easier to avoid taking damage. Some specific abilities might be more desirable for certain classes in melee or ranged based on real-time/turn-based, but that's true of any system. Hardly "major mechanics".

If you frequently paused and used your abilities well in real-time, the overall result is nearly identical. Turn-based can feel easier because it's forcing you to "pause" for every action, every round.

Actually, I'm not sure what your "complaint" is, but it seems like a you issue or personal preference and not an actual problem with the game/system. And I'm not sure why you fail to understand that changing modes isn't cheating, but I'm sure you'll give us yet another rant about it.

[psychotron666]

Originally posted by Diomedes:

Originally posted by Frostfeather:

It's not difficult to make a Deadfire group that works great in both real-time and turn-based... and switch between them as desired (which isn't a cheat). Giving yourself 9 billion gold or something is a cheat.

Maybe it would help if you were more specific than "multiple major mechanics". When you look at the differences compared to the scope of the game, they're really not huge. Mostly, you'd only even need to be aware of them if you're building your entire group around a gimmick or something.

Weapon swap is OP af in Turn based mode, the game favors dual wield above all else.. Classes like cipher are abysmal in turn based mode.. Abilities, like dance of death, which weren't very good for melee monks, are now amazing... Turn based mode also made the game way easier due to these mechanical changes, and the AI not doing a very good job. IDGAF if you can make a good group for both, that is not my complaint. They locked the two modes, they were never designed to be played together for this game, because it fundamentally changes the game, HENCE YOU ARE CHEATING to get it to work both ways with the use of the console to your own benefit. I don't understand how this is so hard to comprehend..
This game is not pathfinder, the rules are fundamentally based off the turn based system.. Pillars was built for the ground up as a real time with pause system.. Which is why Turn based mode was only ever considered a experimental thing in PoE2, with numerous flaws and poor balance.

Weapon swap isn't op in turn based lol, if anything it's worse because it takes your whole turn action to do it and you can't attack afterwards.

Yes turn based mode will be easier in all cases of rtwp vs turn based, because you don't get 1 second of dead time while rtwp can have you lose lots of time if your dumb companion stands there for 3 seconds after doing an ability and you don't notice.

Big fights on rtwp are just as long as big fights in turn based with speed turned up. Yes, the trash mob fights are shorter in turn based because you can just go on auto pilot and not do anything.

It's also not cheating to switch between modes (though not recommended). You need to use the iroll20s console command to activate cheats which is not needed for switching between them.

Turn based is balanced, just balanced differently than rtwp. Some things are stronger, some things are weaker. Also the mega bosses in turn based are basically impossible while in rtwp they can be beat.
Also the ultimate challenge is impossible in turn based but is able to be completed in rtwp.

[harken23]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

Big fights in rtwp took forever too because you needed to pause every half second to reissue orders.

If you're pausing every half second and issuing orders, you're doing it wrong. Any order you issue takes 6 seconds (one round, just like in TB) to complete. If your melee fighter is fighting something, you don't have to keep telling them to keep fighting that thing, unless you want to use a special ability. There's a selection in the AI that when checked will "Use Per-Rest Abilities".

RTwP should never take longer than TB. Rounds are six seconds long in game terms for both modes. With RTwP, everybody's acting at once. In TB, every combatant has to be told what to do every round, even if it's "keep doing what you're doing", which is not something you have to do in RTwP.

if your dumb companion stands there for 3 seconds after doing an ability and you don't notice.

If your characters are "standing around for 3 seconds" that's a mistake on your part. You have to keep an eye on what your people are doing. Look at their portrait. In the upper right corner it says what they're doing this round. If it's three dots, they have no orders to carry out (and it probably means you have AI turned off or set to passive or defensive or something). Click on them and tell them what to do. If you didn't notice they were standing around, that's not the system's or the devs' shortcoming.