Pillars of Eternity

Pillars of Eternity

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Satyr Jan 12, 2023 @ 12:31pm
Starting to understand where the difficulty in PoTD is.
Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Miss Hit Miss Miss

With 15 ****ing perception. Mindblowing. Nothing hard about it beyond praying to god you land at least a third of your abilities/attacks. Lmao

Should I just reroll and set perception to 18?
Last edited by Satyr; Jan 12, 2023 @ 1:10pm
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StickyFingaz Jan 12, 2023 @ 2:36pm 
looks like Normal difficulty in Pathfinder to me :)
Gilmoy Jan 12, 2023 @ 4:39pm 
Persevere and grind onward :steamhappy:
Perception is not needed.
More to the point, Perception's gains wouldn't fix the root problem.

PotD is all about fight management.
Never Get Swarmed.
Control enemy forces.
Juggle your damage.
Run back and rest for free in an inn, often. (Hoard your supplies, even if they're free.)

Reload often :steamhappy: But not too often.

More deeply, pick your path through the world wisely.
You don't have to clear maps in sequence.
Fight what you can, move on.

~~~~~~~~

Path of the Damned gives all AI enemies +15 Accuracy and +15 to all defenses.
https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Mode#Difficulty_settings
This matters, because of the way PoE1 resolves attacks.

0. Exemplar: ye basic Young Boar
You might be only L2 when you meet these guys in Magran's Fork!
Their base stats are 37 Accuracy, 27 Deflection.
But on PotD, they're 52 Accuracy, 42 Deflection.

Your heroes may have L2 with junk gear stats of about 25 Accuracy, 25 Deflection.
So this Young Boar already has +27, +17 deltas over you.
Equivalently, your delta is -17 when you attack it.

That means:

0.a) Delta is Crit! Delta is Crit! Delta is Crit!
Crit chance is the chance your d100 + Delta > 100.
When delta = 0, your crit chance is 0%.
Young Boar's delta of +27 means it crits you 27% of the time! It's big!

Negative Delta is (Also) Miss!
Miss chance is the chance your d100 + Delta < 16.
When delta = 0, your miss chance is [edit] 15%.
Young Boar's delta (on defense) of +17 means you miss it (17 + 15) = 32%!

The everlasting goal of PoE1 is to build up your +Accuracy and +Deflection over time.
Before then, manage your risk tactically with positioning, and strategically by not fighting.

Boars (adults) are even worse, with Normal stats of 51 Accuracy, 42 Deflection.
On PotD, they're sky-high like this:

(51 + 15 = 67 Accuracy) - your 27 Deflection = +40.
Their odds table is 10% Graze, 50% Hit, 40% Crit. They never miss.

Your 35 Accuracy - their (42 + 15 = 57 Deflection) = -22.
Your odds table is 37% Miss, 35% Graze, 28% Hit, and you cannot crit.

~~~~~~~~

Perhaps you actually meant "Graze Graze Graze Graze"?
Even low heroes in PotD will get almost exactly 35% Graze results.

For me, the true difficulty of PotD is that my party of 6 has no 2nd tank.
+ I play Cipher as Thematic Game Goal.
+ I know I get a Fighter (Edér), Priest (Durance), and Chanter (Kana).
+ For my 6th member, I hire a goon.

I chose Barbarian :steamsad:, only to learn all over again that her base Deflection is 15.
That's shockingly low. It makes her non-viable in PotD melee.
Even boars and wolves were rolling 67 Accuracy - 20 Deflection = +47 delta against her.
Half of all hits she took were crits for extra stun/daze duration. It simply didn't work.

I replaced her with Melee Kana, but he has the same problem.
I gave him Ladder Door + Weapon and Shield Style for 57 Deflection, and he still wilted.

I demoted both of them to back-row shooter only.
My L4.8 party has 1 tank (Edér) standing in the middle of doorways, and 5 shooters.
Kana shoots only. My Barbarian is a Bowbarian only, and never gets Carnage damage.

It works :steammocking: These sad tactics are what's demanded by PotD math.
I keep my soft, tender morsels out of deadly melee.
L4.9 Edér is up to 73 Deflection. PotD monsters sometimes miss against him.

The deeper point is that you must already adjust your PoE tactics to accommodate PotD.
It's not something you can solve with +Perception in the game start screen.
That "solution" doesn't help 5/6 of your party who join you after the game starts.
Last edited by Gilmoy; Jan 12, 2023 @ 9:37pm
Satyr Jan 13, 2023 @ 12:56am 
Originally posted by Gilmoy:
Perhaps you actually meant "Graze Graze Graze Graze"?
Even low heroes in PotD will get almost exactly 35% Graze results.

For me, the true difficulty of PotD is that my party of 6 has no 2nd tank.
+ I play Cipher as Thematic Game Goal.
+ I know I get a Fighter (Edér), Priest (Durance), and Chanter (Kana).
+ For my 6th member, I hire a goon.

My main character is melee cipher with Saber/Stilleto, and sometimes she can completely miss her attacks on targets 3-4 times at the start of the fight, which almost makes her useless. Its even worse when she also misses her first spell.

Current stats are:
Might 16
Con 8 (10)
Dex 16 (18)
Per 11 (14)
Int 17 (19)
Res 10

The rest of my party is Eder and Kana front line, Durance, Aloth and Segani backline.



Originally posted by Gilmoy:
0.a) Delta is Crit! Delta is Crit! Delta is Crit!
Crit chance is the chance your d100 + Delta > 100.
When delta = 0, your crit chance is 0%.
Young Boar's delta of +27 means it crits you 27% of the time! It's big!

Negative Delta is (Also) Miss!
Miss chance is the chance your d100 + Delta < 16.
When delta = 0, your miss chance is [edit] 15%.
Young Boar's delta (on defense) of +17 means you miss it (17 + 15) = 32%!

I wont pretend I can fully follow what that means, but I was currently looking at getting resolution, which has a crit multiplier and turns 20% of grazes into hits. I imagine the grazes into hits is probably good on PotD, but how does the crit multiplier stand up in PoTD? Is the only chance I have to land a crit if I have something like Dire Blessing active on me? And can a converted graze>hit be converted from hit>crit?

I am already into the end of act 2, but still feels like I am getting through the game by hoping all of my decisions on how to take on a fight arent undermined by missing half my abilities/attacks.
Last edited by Satyr; Jan 13, 2023 @ 1:03am
Originally posted by SatyricL:
With 15 ****ing perception. Mindblowing.
And?

That's just +5 Accuracy, and you don't get any additional bonus due to dual-wielding already at the start.

If you used a single one-handed weapon only, you would benefit from the stacking +12 Accuracy bonus for one-handed fighting style. Of course, plus bonuses from Weapon Focus.

Also, PotD enemy enhancements sort of suggest that you use consumables more often than not. They don't become strictly required, but food bonuses are long-lasting. Inn resting bonuses on top of that. Survival skill bonuses can be stacked with inn resting bonuses that last 2x. And drugs and potions after scouting ahead and checking what enemies are awaiting you.
la_nague Jan 13, 2023 @ 11:56am 
you need to attack the enemies weakest defence with debuffs that make all the others weaker too (while using buffs yourself). At the beginning you do this for every enemy, and then the stronger you get the less you have to do it for normal enemies and only for special ones and bosses.


That is what you chose when you selected the highest difficulty, you actually have to use the game mechanics.

Idk what you expected, it would be a pretty useless high difficulty mode if you automatically just hit and win every fight.
Last edited by la_nague; Jan 13, 2023 @ 11:57am
Satyr Jan 14, 2023 @ 11:52am 
Originally posted by la_nague:
you need to attack the enemies weakest defence with debuffs that make all the others weaker too (while using buffs yourself). At the beginning you do this for every enemy, and then the stronger you get the less you have to do it for normal enemies and only for special ones and bosses.


That is what you chose when you selected the highest difficulty, you actually have to use the game mechanics.

Idk what you expected, it would be a pretty useless high difficulty mode if you automatically just hit and win every fight.
More enemies, smarter AI, scarcity of resources, many other factors that could be used to set a difficulty standard. Tanking player accuracy just seems like a lazy way to up the "difficulty".

I am playing on PoTD on expert mode, so seeing enemy defenses is not an option. That said, so far there is nothing actually difficult about it. Whether a fight comes across as tough or not depends completely on whether or not my player character misses their first 3 actions or not.

If by use mechanics you mean stand in a door way and set the game to x2 speed when dealing with groups of 10+, then sure.
Last edited by Satyr; Jan 14, 2023 @ 11:53am
StickyFingaz Jan 14, 2023 @ 12:10pm 
Originally posted by SatyricL:

If by use mechanics you mean stand in a door way

That's a classic cRPG tactic.
Originally posted by StickyFingaz:
That's a classic cRPG tactic.
It's a dubious choice in PoE due to four defenses, a Miss/Graze/Hit/Crit system, afflictions - and overly defensive guys becoming poor attackers.
back_buffer Jan 14, 2023 @ 8:36pm 
You would also benefit from using a weapon that comes with an inherent Accuracy bonus. Try switching to a club, they are also Ruffian weapons if you took a focus and don't want to respec.

Switching from saber/stiletto to 1h club would give you a huge +17 boost to Accuracy. As you've noticed, hitting is extremely important for Ciphers. It's worth it to sacrifice a bit of weapon damage and weapon speed to make sure you're generating Focus.

On top of all that, you can have Durance buff your Accuracy with spells and Inspiring Radiance (if you took it). Or bring Pallegina along with Zealous Focus. Or eat food, or drink potions, or use scrolls. Heck, there's even a prostitute who can buff your Perception XD
Originally posted by back_buffer:
Switching from saber/stiletto to 1h club would give you a huge +17 boost to Accuracy.
Only +12 Accuracy, if switching fighting style from two weapons to a single 1H weapon.

Stiletto isn't a bad choice as it's also of the Ruffian family of weapons. As pointed out, Weapon Focus:Ruffian adds +6 Accuracy. One point of Perception adds +1 Accuracy. All stacking with the +12 Accuracy for 1H-only fighting style.
--> https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Weapon_Focus:_Ruffian

Overdoing the min-maxing of attributes can be a bad idea, if it becomes too much of a tradeoff like an Orlan with PER 20 with 3-5 attribute points missing elsewhere and being a hindrance.
On the other hand, there are a few unique options in the game, and gaining a permanent Might 28 (based on a MIG 21 Aumaua and the unique MIG bonuses in the game as well as +4 MIG from equipment) is interesting also for a Cipher who wants to wield the Steadfast sword.


With Eder I usually use a Sabre for the increased damage and the available sabres in the game, a Club or a Sabre/Club pair and a 1H ruffian weapon in 2nd weapon slot. In risky situations with a small shield.

For a Cipher, who absolutely wants to hit reliably in order to gain focus, Rapier can be an alternative choice. Rapiers come with Weapon Bonus:Accurate which gives even a simple rapier another +5 Accuracy.
--> https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Rapiers
Satyr Jan 15, 2023 @ 3:50am 
Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:
Originally posted by back_buffer:
Switching from saber/stiletto to 1h club would give you a huge +17 boost to Accuracy.
For a Cipher, who absolutely wants to hit reliably in order to gain focus, Rapier can be an alternative choice. Rapiers come with Weapon Bonus:Accurate which gives even a simple rapier another +5 Accuracy.
--> https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Rapiers
I havent yet picked my weapon style bonus trait yet because I hadn't fully settled on sabre/stilleto or rapier/dagger.

If I went with Rapier/dagger, I was thinking of going Daenysis/MarchSteel>unlabored later. Unfortunately I gave the dagger to the kid already.

My second weapon, which I usually open with, or use when I am not in a position for melee is Leadspitter, but thats ruffian focus, so I am not sure.
Last edited by Satyr; Jan 15, 2023 @ 4:09am
Melusca Jan 15, 2023 @ 4:07am 
Originally posted by SatyricL:
If I went with Rapier/dagger, I was thinking of going Daenysis/MarchSteel>unlabored later.
Unfortunately I gave the dagger to the kid already.

Easily solved, just whack him and get your dagger back (there's also a bug which let you get 2 daggers from this quest but it requires a very specific path).
Originally posted by SatyricL:
I havent yet picked my weapon style bonus trait yet
Investing into all sorts of Accuracy bonuses is highly beneficial on PotD mode - even morie so, if you insist on two weapon fighting style already early (which is bad idea as mentioned).

Afterall, a Cipher is -5 Accuracy compared with a Fighter/Monk/Rogue due to class traits. So, if you don't learn Weapon Focus early, you're missing its +6 bonus. Sure, the missing +12 bonus from 1H fighting style is more hefty, but combined you're missing +23 Accuracy compared with a Fighter/Monk/Rogue, who invest into Accuracy.
back_buffer Jan 15, 2023 @ 1:51pm 
Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:
Originally posted by back_buffer:
Switching from saber/stiletto to 1h club would give you a huge +17 boost to Accuracy.
Only +12 Accuracy, if switching fighting style from two weapons to a single 1H weapon.

(... snip ...)

For a Cipher, who absolutely wants to hit reliably in order to gain focus, Rapier can be an alternative choice. Rapiers come with Weapon Bonus:Accurate which gives even a simple rapier another +5 Accuracy.
--> https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Rapiers

Ummm clubs also come with Accurate, that's why I recommended them and why +17 is correct :) There aren't as many cool uniques for clubs but I assumed with sabre/stiletto that OP had already chosen a weapon focus. That assumption was incorrect which does open up rapiers as a good choice. Spears and daggers, too.
Last edited by back_buffer; Jan 15, 2023 @ 2:32pm
Gilmoy Jan 17, 2023 @ 4:15pm 
I put some of these ideas to the test. They make a big difference!

L5 Cipher 58 Accuracy with 1H Fine Flail => 71 with Measured Restraint
L5 Aloth 46 Accuracy with 1H Oidhreacht (stiletto) => 55 with Fine Spear
L5 Durance 31 Accuracy with Durance's Staff => 52 with Fine Club

Spares from my stash instantly gain me +13, +9, and +21 Accuracy.
I've sold dozens of Fine weapons, but I knew from this thread to keep Spear, Club, Rapier.

Accuracy also applies to all of your spells, scrolls, abilities, active effects, and traps.
It's evaluated at the instant your spell, ability, effect, or trap resolves.

Thus a spellcaster wants +Accuracy while casting a spell.
Hence it pays to carry a 1H melee weapon with +Accuracy, even if you never swing it.
Aloth and Durance always switch before casting spells, and it does help.

Funny: Aloth was Blinded down to negative Accuracy, so I didn't switch him back to Wand.
He just held the Fine Spear and stood idle for 29.2 seconds.
During that time, the extra +Accuracy helped for every Chill Fog tick.

My Cipher does rarely melee for free hits.
Flail is Fast with graze-promotion, while Rapier is Average speed with Accurate.
Considering only their total melee damage, they might be nearly equal.

But she spends far more time using Cipher spells, esp. Treason, Binding, and even
Antipathetic Field. +17 Accuracy from the rapier is overwhelmingly better for this.

Measured Restraint is the unique Rapier found in Od Nua 2's annular room.
It has Accurate 3 = +12 Accuracy, which blocks its Quality slot, so you can't make it Fine.
Anyways, it's already equivalent to an Exceptional tier weapon.
Last edited by Gilmoy; Jan 17, 2023 @ 4:15pm
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Date Posted: Jan 12, 2023 @ 12:31pm
Posts: 18