How do you avoid AOE spells hurting your own party?

[Gargamel]

I am having a lot of trouble with this, because anytime I feel the need to use an AOE spell, it's because there is a swarm of enemies all over me. I want to pull the trigger on the fireball, or some of the directional spells, but they always tear my party apart. Here's a few instances when I use an aoes spell.

1. enemies are running at me fast, I try and aoe by either targeting an enemy, which results in them running to me, and hurting myself, or they run past the spell cause it's hard to time it right. So I waste it. Like with the oil spell.

2. I decide since I am so swarmed, to just use it in the middle of chaos, and hope my guys survive.

3. I use someth9ing like fire fan and the enemy runs into a group of my party, and I hit everyone.


There rarely seems to be an instance I can use one effectively except when I am holding down a doorway, and there are so many enemies that they are clumped together behind the door. But even then it is hard to not hit my guys.

I could use some tips.

[Johnny 5]

You have to hit them before they see you, or after you engage them so they are not moving.
Aim at the ground rather then the enemy.

[Gargamel]

I acutally never thought of hitting them before they see me. I normally scout out with my paladin and pull to a safe area.

The issue with aiming at the gorund in the middle of battle, is you can't get a direct hit (red), with an aoe spell, without some part of the spell (yellow, red), hitting your character, because the enemy is engaged so close to an ally.

I guess if I upgraded fire, or other element defense, maybe I could negate some of the attack, giving me an edge.

[Gregorovitch]

I think the most important thing is to hold back on your defuffing and offence spells until you have established and stabalised a front line with your melee. You are then in a position to drop enemy debuffs and nukes on the enemy without hurting your guys. It's very helpful to turn off all AI for your melee at the start of a battle so they stay put exatly wheree you want them. This enables you to (for example) place Aloth's Chill Fog right in front of your melee where it will slow and blind the enemy melee without hurting yours. During this time you should use Durance to cast spells Concecrated Ground, Dire Blessing, Armour of Faith.

Once the battle line is established you should start debuffing and disabling the enemy and buffing your own party with Aloth and Durance as a priority. The important equation to keep in mind at all times is the basic attack roll: 1D100 + (your accuracy - their defelction). You aim is to increase your accuracy and defelction and decrease theirs (or negate their casters debuffs on your party). One effective spells to do that is Aloth's Curse of the Balckened Sight which reduces their deflection and accuracy by about 20. There are several more. What this does is to massivly increase your hit, and more importantly, crit rate and reduce theirs shifting the odds dramtically in your favour.

This is why Concecrated Ground and Dire Blessing are so important. With those spells active your party are getting their endurance topped up continuously and 20% of all your hits are getting converted to crits. Once you have also debuffed/disabled the enemy to reduce their deflection your front line DPS will be critting right, left and centre and you foes will drop like flies.

The other important thing is enemies that have disabling attacks that can frighten, sicken, stun, stick, paralyse and charm etc your party. Durance has a group of spells that start with "Prayer Against xxxxxxxx". You should learn what enemies cast which of these spells and get Durance to cast the appropriate "Prayer against...." immediately as soon as you spot one.

TL;DR is that nuke magic (such as fireballs) is distinctly meh against buffing/debuffing magic in this game, it is important to keep your party in tight formation so your party buffs affect everyone properly and it is wise to have three specialist and at least one auxiliary front line melee characters in your party to tie up the enemy in a stationary position so they can be debuffed and disabled in preparation for efficient dispatching without causing friendly fire.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by jfoe1980:

The issue with aiming at the gorund in the middle of battle, is you can't get a direct hit (red), with an aoe spell, without some part of the spell (yellow, red), hitting your character, because the enemy is engaged so close to an ally.

This depends on your success in controling the battlerfield and formations and tactics can help a lot with this. For example this is my party for my PotD run:

.......Pallegina........................Eder
.....................Me (Barbarian)
......Sagani......Durnace..........Aloth
...................Itamuuk (Sagani's fox)

In this set up I frequently wait for the enemy to come on to me and see what they do. If they try to flank to my left, for example, both my Barb and Itamuuk can can move quickly to itercept them creatijng and extended left flank. In other situations they come straight at me in which case Pallegina and Eder will move slightly left and right respectively and my barb will advance to engage centre. Other battles they have dangerous spell casters and I have Itamuuk circle round the enemy front line and take them down with help from Sagani from range. In yet other situations enemies have teleport abilities and my barb, Sagani and Itamuuk stay in position to protect Durance and Aloth while Eder and Pallegina hold the front line.

I can therefore respond in a variety of ways to what the enemy does to help Durance and Aloth to do their stuff unmolested.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

I'd like to hear the specifics. What enemies? Which area/map? How many enemies can your blocker/tank engage?

If enemies are running towards you, you can withdraw and let your tanks engage them. You can also try to slow down the enemies with spells that hinder movement. Or set up Wall of Fire or Wall of Force which holds up some enemies. The duration of lots of spells is long enough to hurt enemies that are within the AoE.

A different problem are spirits (and a few other enemies) that teleport to your party location. That asks for different counter-measures, such as better armor and defenses and weapons that quickly kill such attackers. You may need to stay close together and do burning damage.

[CH_Wolfe]

The yellow ring of the spell won't hurt your allies; only the red part will. Once you've engaged your enemies and they're static at that spot, then try using AoEs. When you aim an AoE spell, a number (likelihood of hit) will be displayed over their head and their base lights up to indicate that the spell will hit them. If you move your aim point so the edge of the spell no longer touches their base, the number disappears indicating they are not targeted. This can help aim at enemies as well as avoid friendlies.

- Chris

[Miles]

Or you could just disable friendly fire

[Strandly]

This has always been a boner of a thing in basically every single party-based RPG I've ever played and I'd love to see a company come up with a clever solution to it.

It's especially bad in this game because on the hard setting the targeting rings are apparently disabled. I think I am near the end of my play-through and I played the vast majority of the game without a single area spell in Aloth's book because I have no idea what it will hit.

[Gargamel]

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

I think the most important thing is to hold back on your defuffing and offence spells until you have established and stabalised a front line with your melee. You are then in a position to drop enemy debuffs and nukes on the enemy without hurting your guys. It's very helpful to turn off all AI for your melee at the start of a battle so they stay put exatly wheree you want them. This enables you to (for example) place Aloth's Chill Fog right in front of your melee where it will slow and blind the enemy melee without hurting yours. During this time you should use Durance to cast spells Concecrated Ground, Dire Blessing, Armour of Faith.

Once the battle line is established you should start debuffing and disabling the enemy and buffing your own party with Aloth and Durance as a priority. The important equation to keep in mind at all times is the basic attack roll: 1D100 + (your accuracy - their defelction). You aim is to increase your accuracy and defelction and decrease theirs (or negate their casters debuffs on your party). One effective spells to do that is Aloth's Curse of the Balckened Sight which reduces their deflection and accuracy by about 20. There are several more. What this does is to massivly increase your hit, and more importantly, crit rate and reduce theirs shifting the odds dramtically in your favour.

This is why Concecrated Ground and Dire Blessing are so important. With those spells active your party are getting their endurance topped up continuously and 20% of all your hits are getting converted to crits. Once you have also debuffed/disabled the enemy to reduce their deflection your front line DPS will be critting right, left and centre and you foes will drop like flies.

The other important thing is enemies that have disabling attacks that can frighten, sicken, stun, stick, paralyse and charm etc your party. Durance has a group of spells that start with "Prayer Against xxxxxxxx". You should learn what enemies cast which of these spells and get Durance to cast the appropriate "Prayer against...." immediately as soon as you spot one.

TL;DR is that nuke magic (such as fireballs) is distinctly meh against buffing/debuffing magic in this game, it is important to keep your party in tight formation so your party buffs affect everyone properly and it is wise to have three specialist and at least one auxiliary front line melee characters in your party to tie up the enemy in a stationary position so they can be debuffed and disabled in preparation for efficient dispatching without causing friendly fire.

That was incredibly informative, thank you. I have been picking up all the buff spells, and I have a priest, so I will look more into that. On a side note, I tried some of what you said, and finally managed to get my first bounty head. The lurker. Now i'm off to the Xarups, or whatever they're called. Almost beat them this first time. I think I can do it. My party is all sitting at either almost level 5 or 6 now. So I feel I should be owning some of these at this point. Maybe not though. I also finally beat that dragon below my stronghold, and made it to the jewel door.

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

I'd like to hear the specifics. What enemies? Which area/map? How many enemies can your blocker/tank engage?

Actually, the spirits in the lighthouse were what made me come here. I made it to the top, but that Lillith keeps destroying me, I just can't get position.

My party is probably not the most balanced... I didn't consult online for builds or anything, I just wanted to jump in and use what sounded like fun.

Here's my party...

Wizarrd (main)
Wizard - the elf guy from the beginning
Cipher - Khana
Paladin
Barbarian
Priest

So basically I have one tank, and use my barbarian to dual wield yellow weapons.... and tank.
Khana has the really good gun that gets 8 shots in, but is really slow.
My paladin has that sword from the beginning that is yellow and does fire damage.

I wish I could get more specific, but I started typing here without first booting the game, but all my characters are almost level 5 or 6.

I definitely should have made another tanky class, I just wanted to keep the extra wizard, because he seemes to be part of the story.

If I were to kick someone, and buy a new character, what would be a good tank class? I heard paladin isn't that great, but I find she does well with her endurance cure spell, and the priest helps the whole party recover endurance as well. I find my barbarian, although without shield, can take some hits, plus he has an endurance regen spell as well.

Everyone else gets owned though in battle if they get attacked. I'm using light armor on my mages so I can get spells out fast.

I could definitely use some better weapons and armor ASAP. Even though almost all my stuff is yellow, the weapons are weak with exception of Khana's. I just can't find any good stuff.

[Strandly]

I'd ditch Aloth or Kana (preferably Kana) and pick up Eder.

[Gargamel]

Originally posted by Strandly:

I'd ditch Aloth or Kana (preferably Kana) and pick up Eder.

See, I kept Kana, because everyone says the chanter guys are good. But I do not like him. His chants suck, as least at this point. His sunlight ray is horrible, and his guns are slow. So I may just do that. Need to find that guy, but I will google search. I really need to pick up the guide/

So I stomped the Xarup guys with some of the tips you all gave. I destroyed them with fireballs by only making sure the yellow hits my guys, kept my everyone back except my barbarian, put my proest in the middle to buff, and didnj't even have to aoe debuff them will the end. It wan't even a close match. My paladin went out fast, within the first few seconds, but somehow my barbarian held the line and dominated.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by jfoe1980:

I also finally beat that dragon below my stronghold, and made it to the jewel door.

Yay! You'll be on your way now - you will only get better as you experiment more with buffing/debuffing and formations. I'm sure you are doing this but just in case not, keep a close eye on the combat log to tell you why you are missing/hitting/criting, pay attention to the numbers.

Originally posted by Strandly:

I'd ditch Aloth or Kana (preferably Kana) and pick up Eder.

I would definitely agree with that. Playing mutliple wizards is very good in some games (BG/IWD for example) but the way combat works and the preponderence of dangerous melee in enemy mobs and the tendency for them to deliberately target your squishy casters in PoE it's a lot harder. Get Eder tout suite.

Originally posted by jfoe1980:

Actually, the spirits in the lighthouse were what made me come here. I made it to the top, but that Lillith keeps destroying me, I just can't get position.

The lighthouse is a famously difficult optional quest and known for being the game over point for many an attmpt at an ironman game. You do not have to defeat Lileth to complete it. Back off her (you can always do this) and search around the top level = there might be somehing of interest to help you resolve this peacefully.

Originally posted by jfoe1980:

If I were to kick someone, and buy a new character, what would be a good tank class? I heard paladin isn't that great, but I find she does well with her endurance cure spell, and the priest helps the whole party recover endurance as well. I find my barbarian, although without shield, can take some hits, plus he has an endurance regen spell as well.

Everyone else gets owned though in battle if they get attacked. I'm using light armor on my mages so I can get spells out fast.

As I said, get Eder asap - he will rgeatly improve the balance of your party and make a huge difference protecting your casters.

Paladins are much better than many people think they are, perhaps becasue it isn't that obvious how powerful their key ability, their focus, is. My choice is Zelous Focus (upgraded with critical focus) which gives +6 accuracy, 15% grazes covernted to hits and 5% hits converted to crits across the whole party within range (which for Palllgina equipped with inteloigence buff item is 4.7m radius, i.e. big). That adds up to a monumental amount of extra damage output.

I found that my barbarian worked better with a beast of a 2H weapon - his carnage output wenrt through hte roof and the 2H was much more effective against high DR monsters.

Originally posted by jfoe1980:

Here's my party...

Wizarrd (main)
Wizard - the elf guy from the beginning
Cipher - Khana
Paladin
Barbarian
Priest


If I were to kick someone, and buy a new character, what would be a good tank class? I heard paladin isn't that great, but I find she does well with her endurance cure spell, and the priest helps the whole party recover endurance as well. I find my barbarian, although without shield, can take some hits, plus he has an endurance regen spell as well.

Kana has one good summon spell that requires three phrases, the phantom, but his really good one, the two ogres requires five phrases and I found that's far too slow in most battles to be effeective. I dropped him 'cos of that.

I would ditch Aloth for this playthrough his little quest notwithstanding - you are playing a wizard and using two is IMO unblanced and hard to defend with until late game where you do have options for this.

I would try the ranger Sagani and make sure to upgrade her fox to Merciless Companion (and take my word for merciless really means merciless) or the druid Hiravias when you find him 'cos he's got some awesome spells in place of Kana. See how you like them.

Originally posted by jfoe1980:

I could definitely use some better weapons and armor ASAP. Even though almost all my stuff is yellow, the weapons are weak with exception of Khana's. I just can't find any good stuff.

Don't worry overmuch about this - tactics are more important than weapon power, although obviously nice weapons are always nice. Do look out for good armour though and make sure you buy some plate armour for your front line for early- mid-game survivability. There are a number of good unique weapons and the most important thing is to upgrade them with enchants. Do not hesitate to buy one if you see one that has an enchantment you really like for one of your charcters. You can always upgrade it as the game progresses. The power of unique weapons is that they have unique enchantments you can't do yourself that do *not* count towards the 12 enchantment limit. Which means you can find a nice weapon fairly early game and it will do for practically the whole game from there on since you can prgoressively upgrade its quality.

Top weapon tip is to buy Firebrand from the smithy in the Crucuble Knights base at Definace Bay. Give it to your barbarian. Gaze in awe at the carnage damage numbers in the combat log thereafter. Don't forget to buff you barb's intelligence.

[Gargamel]

Awesome, I 'm about to load up and use some of those tips, and buy that 2H weapon.

I have not upgraded a single item....

I am weird in this way because I am always scared I am going to upgrade and waste items. I should probably start experimenting now.

[Gargamel]

ok, i unlocked the smithy shop at crucible knights. I do not see this firebrand. I see a white estoc, that is yellow, and a pair of gloves, that grant inferno. Do more itmes unlock as the game progresses?

[Strandly]

Do what items unlock?

I have probably 25 unique weapons in my stash I'm not even using because they drop all over the place.