How to deal with "per rest" abilities

[Dаnyøф]

I have just started a game, and I have found the "per rest abilities" kind of annoying. I ask you for help since I think it can be a mindset problem and you can find me to help a way for dealing with it properly (I started with a Wizard)


1) I don't know how many camping supplies I will eventually find, so I feel afraid of using those spells and I end up not using them at all... which means that I am a wizard who is just using the magic stick to attack, (and the arcane assault, which is per encounter)


This way the combats become something boring, rather than a spectacle full of magic and power spells with lights and so on.


2) On the other hand, I could just apply the strategy of using them whenever I really need to use them, but what would happen if I run out of camping supplies? Should I then have to go walking the whole world for finding an inn to rest in and then go back to the area to keep cleaning it, and when this happens again, the same long-time-wasting trip? I can find this kind of boring... in a long term... does this happen often?


3) In Neverwinter Nights happens something similar, but the resting can be perfomed right after the combat. Here you just cast 2 fireballs, and you need to rest 8 hours (in game) for being able to cast another 2... and then resting again.... Even if all the points above were missing,

I would find lacking the immersion that for every time you rest, 8 hours pass, then go to attack those enemies a little bit beyond where you camp, and then again, 8 hours resting for repeating the same... :p
Isn't it this weird?

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

It's the rules the developers have come up with for this game.

Nobody claims they are better than NWN or BG/IWD, but the fundamental problem is that if you could rest anywhere and anytime, you would rest always after and before every fight as to be fully refreshed. An artificial limit is supposed to cause you some pain, if you fight to inefficiently and really need to leave a dungeon to retreat to a safe place such as an inn. This has not been good in IWD and related games where you could be attacked while resting.

Fortunately, most inns and a few merchants sell camping material. And you find them in chests and barrels often enough. Don't be afraid of using them. As a wizard you may want to find some safe place as early as possible, however, and also find some companions. Else you cannot avoid using your high Accuracy to wield a weapon other than a wand.

Once you've acquired your stronghold, you can build your own inn, rest freely, receive good resting bonuses, and also hire your own merchant to sell you camping materials.

Also note that the rules will change with the 3.0 release. Currently, at higher levels you get entire spell levels to be per encounter. In 3.0, you can only choose a spell that will be per encounter (Spell Mastery talent).

[Drake]

In most dungeons you will find at least one or two supplies in chests, so you can rest half way without going back to town.
Then unless you're doing the solo achievement, you need to have in mind that the game is made so that you control a party of 6 chars.
Of all the classes, only 3 are on full rest mode (wizard, priest and druid), the others can use most of their talents per encounter or at will with resources (hello cypher, monk and chanter).

You're not supposed to spam fireballs with your wizard each fight, but only use them when you get a crowd in front of you. It's basically how the system works in old school pnp games and fantasy litterature, powerful casters only use magic once or twice in encounters, they don't spam their spells, there are warriors for the dirty work.

[Dаnyøф]

Thanks for the answer. I can understand the technical parts, and well... let's face it, it is a desing decission and the game is like this. Maybe the game is nor for me, but I just throw a few questions to the air, so you tell me what you think :)


I consider RPG has always been about epic fantastic battles where different races with superpowers and abilites where able to cast great and amazing spells... something the rest of the mortals could never imagine....

I find the desing of the game in a way that promotes using your character as little as possible in order to save the resources for a possible final boss... making combats kind of monotone... since you have skills you can not use.

I know the game is balanced on this way, but I would rather prefer a game where you dont need to rest for casting those spells. This way, the optimization could be found on just 4 spells per level (as it is) and if you change the grimoire then you have a penalization of time in combat, and instead of 4 encounters with 3 moobs each one + 1 final boss, lets put more encounters, or more moobs.

The balance can be found in many different ways. With X+5=Y you can make X=0 and Y=5 or maybe X=100 and Y=105.... whatever you want. The problem is I think this balance is kind of.... tedious?


I dont want to offend anyone with this opinion, just wanted to comment it and open to read your opinions and maybe change my mind.

[Kaiser]

You can also always carry up to six at a time. It is rare that you will ever use all six before returning a merchant, however, the only way I have found you can do that without returning to at the very least the same area is to do Od Nua all in one go... which would be very hard.

[Dаnyøф]

Actually I was talking about the Hard Mode and PotD, that only allow you to take two camp supplies.

Some classes rely on the per encounter abilites, and it is just fun to play with them. You don't need to save your skills, so actually your party will be always made up of those classes, not allowing you to actually play with the class you really want constantly, but just in the hard combats.

And well... if every area/dungeon is giving you a pair of camping supplies... then you loose immersion. I won't feel in an open world, but in a enclosed squared-map where I need to find those camp supplies first so I can manage the strategy for the combats, rather than exploring freely the world and facing the combats with all the power I have.


I consider the Health-Endurance system where your health is decreasing after every combat, and your endurance regenerating it is GREAT and AMAZING. This is the tactic decission I want to take.
So I can manage the camping supplies, optimize the combat in order to receive the minimum damage, use the shields properly, and the spells in the right way so I can exterminate my enemies asap, not limiting the use of my class as it is now, making me the experience of playing a Role Game with a Wizard to just cast 1 or 2 fireballs every 6 combats, and the rest to hit my enemies only with the wand....

Has someone found this "issue" and managed to pass over it? How can I find enjoyable the experience?

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

If you don't enjoy Pillars of Eternity, look out for a different game. It's easy as that.

The Health/Endurance system is critized quite a lot by others, because there are only very limited ways to restore a bit of Health outside of combat. Eventually, you need to rest anway to refresh Health. Especially at harder difficulty settings, where you can be maimed or killed instead of only going unconscious. Normal injuries, and those coming in 3.00, too, can only be cured by resting. In other games, a good healer would be capable of curing injuries any time.

Please stop referring to your Wizard's wand. As pointed out before, you can give wizards any weapon you like, and they can become dangerous melee/ranged fighters with the help of skills, buffs and enchanted weapons. Their magic powers are not endless, however, so during combat they are limited to memorized spells. There are lots of scrolls to be found in case you think it's necessary to spam magic. In the same way, several other talents are per rest, too.

It seems you want godlike casters that can spam fireballs, but in Pillars of Eternity area damage spells are not the only thing, and many players consider crowd control superior.

Resting in Pillars of Eternity really is not a problem. Immersion breaking? Just make sure you never turn on the restricted Stash.

You will notice other things that could be done differently, but would still be controversial.

[Vita, Mortis, Careo]

As others have indicated, Pillars of Eternity features a quasi-Vancian style of magic. Your wizard or priest can cast X number of Y spells before needing to rest. It is not an Elder Scrolls-style title where your automatically refilling mana pool allows one to spam fireballs all day. There is a very strategic element to combat and spell usage.

It sounds like this game really isn't for you.

[Dаnyøф]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

If you don't enjoy Pillars of Eternity, look out for a different game. It's easy as that.

Yes, probably I will, but I know that under my critics, PoE is a great game with a nice story and good universe. I would like to appreciate those things, but I can't against the thigns i posted.

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

Please stop referring to your Wizard's wand. As pointed out before, you can give wizards any weapon you like, and they can become dangerous melee/ranged fighters with the help of skills, buffs and enchanted weapons.

There my point, magic is not for this game, and I will have to end up with a wizard with sword and shield... kind of far from the idea I have from roling a"pure wizard".

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

It seems you want godlike casters that can spam fireballs, but in Pillars of Eternity area damage spells are not the only thing, and many players consider crowd control superior.

Actually no, I just want to have epic combats where a wizard cast magic, and a warrior fights with swords. Just that, not to have the wizard hidden behind the warriors doing nothing... or maybe using scrolls, since the wizard has difficults to use its own skills in combat.

I am finding in many role games the fact that the wizard is actually a weak class and must use the need of a sword or other weapons to compensate its weakness in magic, which is ridiculous.



To sum up my idea, here it goes how is it:

In 1 Dungeon with 5 encounters + 1 final boss.

ACTUAL SITUATION
2 spells per rest
2 camping supplies in your inventory
1 camping supply in the dungeon.

That gives you 6 spells for the whole Dungeon.
So you use 1 or 2 in those mini encounters, and the other 4 for the boss.

WHAT I WOULD LIKE
4 spells per encounter.

The 5 mini encounters with more moobs, so you need to use all those spells.



Conclusion: I am going to use 4 spells for the final boss anyway. Why not to put the other encounters harder, so I need to use magic on it, instead of just waiting behind the warriors line doing nothing, but allowing me to cast those spells instead so I can enjoy the usage of magic in this game, and not to be a limited resource?

[Dаnyøф]

Originally posted by Vita, Mortis, Careo:

Your wizard or priest can cast X number of Y spells before needing to rest [...]
[...] There is a very strategic element to combat and spell usage.

Yes but where is the strategy if you don't know how many camping supplies you will find, or if on the other hand, as stated before, you are expected to find 1 or 2 in every dungeon?

The strategy ends up like: "I wont use spells now, expecting I will need to use them later"

And sometimes it comes out that you find more camping supplies than what you were expecting, and it turns out that the combats you had were really boring, and could have been solved in a funnier way...

[Dаnyøф]

My very last question would be this:

How do I know that I can cast some spells in the combats where I am having troubles, and I won't need them later; ruining the game and having to load a previous savegame to keep those spells for the final boss?

[scottk]

Keep up your camping supplies. Always max your inventory in town. Keep in mind you can leave dungeons or maps when you run out of supplies -- go back to town to restock. I almost never ran out of camping supplies except in the long dungeon. Also keep in mind that at level 9 ( I think) level 1 spells become per encounter.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by danyof:

There my point, magic is not for this game, and I will have to end up with a wizard with sword and shield... kind of far from the idea I have from roling a"pure wizard".

You must be kidding.

Are you even referring to the game Pillars of Eternity?

Your Steam profile doesn't display Pillars of Eternity. Have you purchased it elsewhere? How long have you played it?

Do you have an idea how powerful wizards become as they advance level by level? They will get more spell levels and more spells per level, and they will get plenty to do at higher levels and in more difficult battles. Not much time will be left to attack with normal weapons, unless you explicitly use spells and talents that strengthen their melee/ranged weapon attack abilities of your wizard only.

Originally posted by danyof:

Actually no, I just want to have epic combats where a wizard cast magic, and a warrior fights with swords. Just that, not to have the wizard hidden behind the warriors doing nothing...

Then by all means, cast away. Proceed to the next battle, and cast again. There will be enough spells for several battles before you may need to rest because of damage on your other characters anyway.

Do you know what will happen, if you don't cast? Alone, your warriors won't stand a chance against the more powerful enemies, which practically will disable your warriors, cause afflictions and buff themselves to levels you don't hit them anymore. It's the damn job of casters to make a difference in such battles.

Originally posted by danyof:

I am finding in many role games the fact that the wizard is actually a weak class and must use the need of a sword or other weapons to compensate its weakness in magic, which is ridiculous.

You've got it backwards. Wizards are not weak, but high-level warriors have access to enchanted weapons and talents to cause a wizard problems. The wizard then needs to decide whether to boost protections quickly or try to go the offensive route. It's not a clear thing where the wizard is superior for sure. Again, it seems you want wizards to be gods, who don't need to fear any opponents at all. That is something you need to find in other games.

Originally posted by danyof:

My very last question would be this:

How do I know that I can cast some spells in the combats where I am having troubles, and I won't need them later; ruining the game and having to load a previous savegame to keep those spells for the final boss?

It is a role-playing game. You can decide whether to rest and when to rest. You can sneak forward in stealth mode, discover enemies and decide whether to attack them after resting or with whatever resources are left to you. If your warriors are only at 50% Health, that may become problematic, too. Or if you haven't rested for days, and fatigue kicks in.

[Drake]

What level are you ? because I think there is some misconception about spells per rest.

First, Wiz/priests/druids (because those 3 classes are the same when talking about mechanics) are not limited to 2 or 3 spells per rest, that's when you're lv 1 to 3, ie the beginning of the game, where those classes are supposed to be weak (we're talking about old school rpg, first levels = newbie caster). After that you have a good pool of spell uses per rest, up to 6 (4-5 for the most powerful ones) by spell level, so it's more about 30 to 40 spells per rest. You're not going to use all that in one fight, unless you're fighting a dragon (and even then dragon-like fights are not in dungeons there are in separate rooms where you can come anytime you feel you have a shot at the beast).

Second, those spells per rest shouldn't be compared to the at will or encounter talents other classes have. They are usually more powerful than other classes talents and very useful, I mean seriously, you don't need 4 gazes of the adragan in a fight, you cast one, the other 5 members of your team will kill everything while the mobs are petrified.

Those classes are not magic spammers, they are support casters, you choose wisely 2-3 spells max in a fight to help you win and your team finishes the job, if you need to spam that means you're using the wrong spells against your foes.

Have you ever played a d&d pnp game (the pre 4E versions obviously), the wizard doesn't spam, some times the only thing I do in a fight is cast one fireball (or a web or any CC aoe spell) and then sit back (it's usually enough for most trash mobs).

So to answer the "how do I know I'm not going to need my spells for later", that's quite simple, it's resource management, if you don't need your wizard for a fight (because the other chars are killing mobs alone) then you don't need to cast. If you feel a mob is immune to something or too strong, you cast one or 2 spells to deal with it. It's gonna be the same for the boss, you don't need to spam all your spells to kill it, if you're doing things right, you'll just need to cast the spells you need to weaken it and the team will do the rest.

[probe]

As a lot of other peeps explained, being a wizard is an experience of development. They start out weak and basic but end up being one of the most powerful classes able to control the battlefield as few other classes.

In PoE the wizard is even stronger than the roots upon which the game is build (the IE games) since the system encourages wizards to focus on strength. As in most other CRPG's the wizard is still better used as a crowd control character than pure DPS character.

Sajah's advice on throwing as few spells as possible is a good one. And will show you exactly how well managed your party is. My advice is to hang in there. The resting mechanic and the number of spells you'll have in a few levels will be no problem as you get used to it.

Imagine rolling a mage with 1-4 HP (in a system like D&D), have 1 spell available and most likely the strength of a butterfly. Now that was rough. PoE's mages are pretty powerful in comparison.

[Iceberg]

Wizards with sword and shield? You can just equip wands, but you won't be using them much anyway cuz wizards have a ton of active abilities, more than most classes, and you get several uses which increase with your character's level.

You don't seem to know enough about the game to be criticizing it so harshly. Also, stop ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Play the game or don't.