Spell selection underwhelming

[synnworld]

I'm now half way to level 9on my wizard and I wonder am I the only one who finds the wizard spell selection underwhelming? I feel that one had minimal reasons to switch it from a handful of spells even for fun. I've been cannibalizing other wizards spellbooks and really like how the wizard feels like the pathfinder's arcanist but the spell just don't seem interesting.

Ever since I got grieving mother, I've found the cipher spells much more interesting and fun, and that's not counting the fact they have no cast limit. If do a second play through I might do a cipher mc... Also just playing on hard now.

[master goose (insanity)]

Wizard is more about status effects than anything else. When I made mine, he had high perception in order to petrify dragons and whatnot. I definitely wouldn't call the selection underwhelming.

[Gilmoy]

PoE1 Wizard spells are an eclectic mix of tactical solutions.
Some are very strong (but that means you save them for a worthy fight).
Others are crap (which means you never learn them, and never miss their absence).

Remember that your Wizard is already a decent shooter.
+ any implement for Blast AoE damage
+ pay 1 talent point for Penetrating Blast ASAP
+ by L9, you could have 1-2 Unique wands
(Elawen Ein in Od Nua 7, Curoc's Brand in WM1 Russetwood Ice Cavern)
+ fully enchant it to Fine + damage + slay (pick one)

So your Wizard can dish out constant ranged damage for free, like a Ranger.
Hence, any per-rest spell cast must be at least that good, or you'd rather shoot.

Cipher spells are, indeed, fantastic. Do play a Cipher run. Then play a Rogue run.
In fact, you can start those runs right now, and keep 3 parallel sets of save files.
But even in your Cipher run, you'll hire Aloth for free, and his Wizard spells will save you.

~~~~

I rate Wizard spells thus:

++++ L4 Confusion, L2 Bewildering. Stealing enemy assets wins door and bridge fights.
Cipher excels here, too, for free but only 1 at a time until L5 Ringleader.
Alas, this doesn't work vs. most Vessels (undead and mindless).

++ L1 Chill Fog, L5 Malignant Cloud. Basic AoE DoT (damage over time).
++ L2 Combusting Wounds. Combines well with your Blast, and a Barbarian's Carnage.
It solves very high DR, like merc Paladins with 20 DR.
You find this for "free" (3/rest) on Ring of Searing Flame, in Od Nua 1 and Raedric's Keep.

++ L3 Expose Vulnerabilities. Nerf a bunch of enemies, and then use your wand Blast.
Combines well with Priest L2 Divine Mark and L4 Shining Beacon.

+ L1 Slicken. When you really need to dump 3-4 enemies on their butts, esp. casters.
Short duration, but it gives you time to run or mop up.

* L4 Minor Grimoire Imprint. Kooky, zany fun, when it works.
An enemy Wizard might have only 4-5 decent L1-L3 spells. (Browse its grimoire )
You might cripple it by stealing 3 good ones, leaving only dregs.
The 15.0 seconds + 24% from high INT lets you cast 3-4 spells back at them, for free.
Alas, most wizard fights have 2+ enemy Wizards.

- all direct-damage. You'd usually rather shoot your wand for free.
-- all offensive self-buffs. You're not a combat stud, and you won't become one.
-- all defensive self-buffs. Nobody targets my Wizard in the first place.

You will learn to fear and hate some Wizard spells because the AI uses them against you.
The math favors the AI. They have dozens (hundreds) of disposable casters with no budget, no tomorrow, and "only" 6 targets. You have the inverse of that.
What scales up for the AI does not scale up for you.

- L2 Necrotic Lance. At low L3 - L6, you can use this as a nigh one-shot kill vs. soft foes.
But it targets AI Fortitude, which gradually beats your modest Accuracy.

- L1 Kalakoth's Sunless Grasp. It actually has 8m or 10m range, and hits for -45 vs. you.

- L3 Minoletta's Bounding Missiles, Fireball. You'll learn to not bunch up in doorways.
Instead, fan out about 6m behind the doorway, so that you're out of jump and AoE range.

PoE1 is the RPG in which you Confuse and Bewilder mindful foes.
It's not an obvious meme for a mage, but it emerges as a main strength.
Hence every L3 - L10 party with Wizard veers toward that mode of play.

Finally, remember that you'll win many grimoires from dead Wizards.
So you don't need to get your level-up spell picks perfect.
Take anything that looks useful or fun right now. Then kill wizards to buy their spells.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Wizard class in PoE is all about versatility and personal taste. The highest diversity of spells to target all four defenses. Compare that with a Cipher, who is quite limited in what defense the cipher powers can target.

Half of a wizard's spells are about role-playing goals, like becoming a fire mage by choosing mostly fire based spells and adding the talent that increases fire damage. Similar choice for ice/frost. Or a priority on crowd control. More rarely a combat wizard, who prepares for melee combat or ranged combat by casting a few protection spells, self-buffs and possibly summoning a magic weapon.

And yes, a cipher's dependency on Focus results in infinite per encounter cipher powers. Just like a chanter can simply continue chanting phrases endlessly and gain power for infinite per encounter invocations, also becoming the most capable summoner in this game. Prefer those two classes, if you want to rest less often - such as when getting the "No Rest for the Pro" achievement.

[synnworld]

Originally posted by Gilmoy:

PoE1 Wizard spells are an eclectic mix of tactical solutions.
Some are very strong (but that means you save them for a worthy fight).
Others are crap (which means you never learn them, and never miss their absence).

Remember that your Wizard is already a decent shooter.
+ any implement for Blast AoE damage
+ pay 1 talent point for Penetrating Blast ASAP
+ by L9, you could have 1-2 Unique wands
(Elawen Ein in Od Nua 7, Curoc's Brand in WM1 Russetwood Ice Cavern)
+ fully enchant it to Fine + damage + slay (pick one)

So your Wizard can dish out constant ranged damage for free, like a Ranger.
Hence, any per-rest spell cast must be at least that good, or you'd rather shoot.

Cipher spells are, indeed, fantastic. Do play a Cipher run. Then play a Rogue run.
In fact, you can start those runs right now, and keep 3 parallel sets of save files.
But even in your Cipher run, you'll hire Aloth for free, and his Wizard spells will save you.

~~~~

I rate Wizard spells thus:

++++ L4 Confusion, L2 Bewildering. Stealing enemy assets wins door and bridge fights.
Cipher excels here, too, for free but only 1 at a time until L5 Ringleader.
Alas, this doesn't work vs. most Vessels (undead and mindless).

++ L1 Chill Fog, L5 Malignant Cloud. Basic AoE DoT (damage over time).
++ L2 Combusting Wounds. Combines well with your Blast, and a Barbarian's Carnage.
It solves very high DR, like merc Paladins with 20 DR.
You find this for "free" (3/rest) on Ring of Searing Flame, in Od Nua 1 and Raedric's Keep.

++ L3 Expose Vulnerabilities. Nerf a bunch of enemies, and then use your wand Blast.
Combines well with Priest L2 Divine Mark and L4 Shining Beacon.

+ L1 Slicken. When you really need to dump 3-4 enemies on their butts, esp. casters.
Short duration, but it gives you time to run or mop up.

* L4 Minor Grimoire Imprint. Kooky, zany fun, when it works.
An enemy Wizard might have only 4-5 decent L1-L3 spells. (Browse its grimoire )
You might cripple it by stealing 3 good ones, leaving only dregs.
The 15.0 seconds + 24% from high INT lets you cast 3-4 spells back at them, for free.
Alas, most wizard fights have 2+ enemy Wizards.

- all direct-damage. You'd usually rather shoot your wand for free.
-- all offensive self-buffs. You're not a combat stud, and you won't become one.
-- all defensive self-buffs. Nobody targets my Wizard in the first place.

You will learn to fear and hate some Wizard spells because the AI uses them against you.
The math favors the AI. They have dozens (hundreds) of disposable casters with no budget, no tomorrow, and "only" 6 targets. You have the inverse of that.
What scales up for the AI does not scale up for you.

- L2 Necrotic Lance. At low L3 - L6, you can use this as a nigh one-shot kill vs. soft foes.
But it targets AI Fortitude, which gradually beats your modest Accuracy.

- L1 Kalakoth's Sunless Grasp. It actually has 8m or 10m range, and hits for -45 vs. you.

- L3 Minoletta's Bounding Missiles, Fireball. You'll learn to not bunch up in doorways.
Instead, fan out about 6m behind the doorway, so that you're out of jump and AoE range.

PoE1 is the RPG in which you Confuse and Bewilder mindful foes.
It's not an obvious meme for a mage, but it emerges as a main strength.
Hence every L3 - L10 party with Wizard veers toward that mode of play.

Finally, remember that you'll win many grimoires from dead Wizards.
So you don't need to get your level-up spell picks perfect.
Take anything that looks useful or fun right now. Then kill wizards to buy their spells.

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

Wizard class in PoE is all about versatility and personal taste. The highest diversity of spells to target all four defenses. Compare that with a Cipher, who is quite limited in what defense the cipher powers can target.

Half of a wizard's spells are about role-playing goals, like becoming a fire mage by choosing mostly fire based spells and adding the talent that increases fire damage. Similar choice for ice/frost. Or a priority on crowd control. More rarely a combat wizard, who prepares for melee combat or ranged combat by casting a few protection spells, self-buffs and possibly summoning a magic weapon.

And yes, a cipher's dependency on Focus results in infinite per encounter cipher powers. Just like a chanter can simply continue chanting phrases endlessly and gain power for infinite per encounter invocations, also becoming the most capable summoner in this game. Prefer those two classes, if you want to rest less often - such as when getting the "No Rest for the Pro" achievement.

Originally posted by thief:

Wizard is more about status effects than anything else. When I made mine, he had high perception in order to petrify dragons and whatnot. I definitely wouldn't call the selection underwhelming.

I feel you guys may have misunderstood my point, I already know a wizard is strong on a technical level as I said the spells themselves feel underwhelming at level 8 whether roleplay or combat wise I never felt I needed to ever change out spells or adapt what my wizard could do. I have no issue with out rest or think a wizard is weak. Figuring out which spells are most effective or how to play the wizard was neither a issue or that hard honestly.

[psychotron666]

Well if you're underwhelmed that the wizard has limited spells and you rarely switch them out, cipher has less spells and they can't be switched out. Not really gonna solve your problem.

Though Poe 2 really expands on the wizard, while the cipher stays mediocre ahe underwhelming.

[StickyFingaz]

Wiazrd is amazing and very versatile. I used Aloth mostly as kind of a Battlemage. Not a battlemage per say, of course, since there are no Multiclass but using Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff or Citzal's Spirit Lance and then buff with Citzal's Martial Power and/or Deleterious Alacrity of Motion and Mirrored image. He was the second most DPS character.

And then, from time to time, Fireball because...fireball.

oh, and Ryngrim's Enervating Terror a the begining of almost every combat. This thing is a must.

Wizard is amazing man.

[Gilmoy]

I agree that PoE1 Wizard spells are, quite frankly, weak.
I think it's a game-balance choice the devs made.
I suspect they had a design principle of: Wizard shall get roughly equal kills as Fighter.
Or something like that.

So they cleverly designed Wizard spells that fail successfully to get mass kills.

For a finite game, I think it's fine. Winning paths exist, and are sufficiently interesting.
Wizard is 1 class out of 11, with comparable DPS.
I enjoy PoE1 Wizards because I already chose to be in PoE1, and I know they're like this.
When visiting PoE1, we put on our PoE1 hats, and think PoE1 thoughts.

If this is your first visit, and the reality doesn't match your expectation, we commiserate.
Keep playing, and perhaps you'll find that it's fun, after all.

[Gilmoy]

Originally posted by StickyFingaz:

... Ryngrim's Enervating Terror a the begining of almost every combat. This thing is a must.

How does that scale up? I can go 50+ fights and clear 1/2 of Russetwood + both levels of Flames-That-Whispers Cavern without resting once. I can't cast 50 L5 spells per sortie.

Also, on PotD, monsters that worry me are rolling 70 - 102 Accuracy vs. my 35 - 50 defense.
-20 Accuracy from Terrified doesn't flip a Hit to a Miss.
It essentially means: Monsters are reduced to Hard difficulty for 20.0 sec
I don't see that as being worth a per-rest cast.
Heck, I don't see it as being worth one 6-second action cycle, even if it were free.

Also, big fights can go 90+ seconds. I don't see the value in 20 seconds of getting 0 kills.
I'd rather cast the pig spell to nerf a mage and maybe get 1 full kill.

~~~~

Maybe you convert loot into coppers into Camping Supplies, and rest more often.
That works, too. I suspect I rest too sparsely, and handicap myself to a "less fun" mode.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by synnworld:

I feel you guys may have misunderstood my point, I already know a wizard is strong on a technical level as I said the spells themselves feel underwhelming at level 8 whether roleplay or combat wise I never felt I needed to ever change out spells or adapt what my wizard could do. I have no issue with out rest or think a wizard is weak. Figuring out which spells are most effective or how to play the wizard was neither a issue or that hard honestly.

Then I'd like to see your definition of "underwhelming".

You've chosen "Hard" difficulty, which isn't that much of a challenge -- if a challenge at all -- depending on what the companions contribute. You're not talking about a PotD solo wizard run either. You use party's wizard to get the job done. Mission accomplished.

[synnworld]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

Well if you're underwhelmed that the wizard has limited spells and you rarely switch them out, cipher has less spells and they can't be switched out. Not really gonna solve your problem.

Though Poe 2 really expands on the wizard, while the cipher stays mediocre ahe underwhelming.

From what I've seen they seem more interesting though. I'm obviously in the minority on this so it's whatever. I'm still enjoying the game and all.

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

Originally posted by synnworld:

I feel you guys may have misunderstood my point, I already know a wizard is strong on a technical level as I said the spells themselves feel underwhelming at level 8 whether roleplay or combat wise I never felt I needed to ever change out spells or adapt what my wizard could do. I have no issue with out rest or think a wizard is weak. Figuring out which spells are most effective or how to play the wizard was neither a issue or that hard honestly.

Then I'd like to see your definition of "underwhelming".

You've chosen "Hard" difficulty, which isn't that much of a challenge -- if a challenge at all -- depending on what the companions contribute. You're not talking about a PotD solo wizard run either. You use party's wizard to get the job done. Mission accomplished.

un·der·whelm
/
verb
gerund or present participle: underwhelming
fail to impress or make a positive impact on (someone); disappoint.
"investors seemed underwhelmed by the company's turnaround plan"

[northernwater]

Originally posted by synnworld:

I'm now half way to level 9on my wizard and I wonder am I the only one who finds the wizard spell selection underwhelming? I feel that one had minimal reasons to switch it from a handful of spells even for fun. I've been cannibalizing other wizards spellbooks and really like how the wizard feels like the pathfinder's arcanist but the spell just don't seem interesting.

Ever since I got grieving mother, I've found the cipher spells much more interesting and fun, and that's not counting the fact they have no cast limit. If do a second play through I might do a cipher mc... Also just playing on hard now.

I intentionally try different sets of spells. I find this entertaining. Also, there are some fights where you need to really scrutinize your spell use since the enemy you are fighting may have unusually strong defenses so I enjoy picking and choosing spells to try and weaken a specific defense and then target that vulnerability.

[northernwater]

Originally posted by synnworld:

un·der·whelm
/
verb
gerund or present participle: underwhelming
fail to impress or make a positive impact on (someone); disappoint.
"investors seemed underwhelmed by the company's turnaround plan"

Excellent response. :)

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by synnworld:

un·der·whelm
/
verb
gerund or present participle: underwhelming
fail to impress or make a positive impact on (someone); disappoint.
"investors seemed underwhelmed by the company's turnaround plan"

Then it escapes me why you believe you've been misunderstood.

Filling a wizard's grimoire with your most often used spells is exactly how it works. If those spells get the job done, then why would you want to choose other spells? Sure, there's the option to set up multiple grimoires for different usage scenarios and either equip a different grimoire outside combat or during combat. But why would you? That can be of interest on PotD mode, with Expert mode (and no prior knowledge about enemy stats), in bounty fights and if facing fearsome foes where you need to try different attack vectors.

However, you've only chosen Hard difficulty, and you refer to level 9. The game's level cap is 16.

Furthermore, you've thrown in highly subjective reasons like not finding the spells interesting. Too bad, if the game doesn't match your taste.

So, I think the early replies have been spot on. PoE offers quite some options for role-players and fans of character/party building.

Originally posted by northernwater:

Excellent response. :)

What would be the rationale? Copying from a dictionary is sort of the worst response there could have been.

[northernwater]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

Originally posted by northernwater:

Excellent response. :)

What would be the rationale? Copying from a dictionary is sort of the worst response there could have been.

The bases of language is common word definition.

... unless of course the goal is obtuse argumentation and contrarianism.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by northernwater:

The bases of language is common word definition.

... unless of course the goal is obtuse argumentation and contrarianism.

The goal is to figure out what exactly the OP doesn't like about the set of wizard spells while calling the fewer cipher powers "much more interesting". The opening post mentions "minimal reasons to switch spells" and not finding the spells interesting, but feedback given in replies is brushed aside.

A wizard in PoE may learn all spells, but doesn't need to. A wizard in PoE can learn a small subset of spells for role-playing matters, and those spells may be devastating enough, or become a jack of all trades for ultimate versatility. And still nothing mandates that player must use all wizard spells. Just like player doesn't need to play a wizard at all.

A cipher MUST choose fewer powers from a much smaller set of powers. The fewer cipher powers are more restrictive with regard to what defense/s they can target. And ciphers strictly depend on gaining Focus from ordinary melee/ranged attacks. They fill a different role than wizards. Playing a cipher in PoE can be even more repetitive, since the cipher will reuse the same powers in every battle - even more so, if trying to balance the few powers to target all four defenses and not mostly Will defense.

Furthermore, "Hard" difficulty isn't that hard, if player chooses the right tools to get the job done. The game is overloaded with options to match the varying taste of a large audience of CRPG players. Not even on PotD mode, a wizard must use all spells. Just like other options (such as but not limited to food, drugs, resting bonuses) don't become mandatory either.