Is the game based on D&D?

[Eldrin]

I mean like for example neverwinter nights 2. Everything ther was based on D&D 3.5 from classes, races, skills to combat.

[Astral Projection]

No. It has some similar game mechanics to Baldur's Gate, but combat mechanics, stats, etc. are very different from D&D.

[wendigo211]

It's as close to D&D as they could get without being sued.

[Vita, Mortis, Careo]

Astral Projection is correct. It is similar to Baldur's Gate. Baldur's Gate is more D&D based, but anyone who has played any of the editions is aware of the fact that what you see in the IE titles isn't actual D&D. Pillars of Eternity, however, has a number of mechnics that are quite different than the D&D-inspired system in the Infinity Engine titles.

[BenSt88]

You can see D&D influences, I would say. For example, of the 4 "defenses", 1 of them is clearly the equivalent to Armor Class (here called Deflection), while Fortitude, Reflex and Will are clearly 3rd edition "saving throws". Most of the character classes are similar (and similarly named) to D&D counterparts--though the Priest is not designed to be a melee participant here. The cipher is an awesome psionics-type PC; the chanter is so cool I'd never want to play a D&D bard again; and the rogue, interestingly enough, can inflict the highest damage in the game.
Most of the 6 attributes have D&D equivalents. Etc. etc.
All of these things are bonuses if you like D&D, but by no means preclude enjoying the game if you're not familiar w/ it.
There are enough mechanics different from D&D as well, in case D&D is not your thing.
Finally, I find the writing and the lore fantastic in PoE. Some great companions (always have Eder and Hiravias in your group for maximum hilarity), most of which have nice voice acting, too.

[Kori D'kjove]

A major difference between the two, among the many that exist, pertains to the game's combat system where...forms of damage (spells, melee weapons, ranged weapons), all deal damage more to an enemy's fatigue moreso than directly to their hitpoints. Example: Baldur's Gate - Cast fireball on goblin. Inflict (add damage here), goblin's hitpoints either lower or it outright dies. Pillars of Eternity: Cast fireball on goblin or rough equivalent. Inflict (# of damage points) to fatigue. Enemy falls unconscious for duration of combat until all enemies succumb to the same result, even via melee or ranged. Making it kinda (keyword) look like everyone remains knocked out until either restored via fatigue-regaining spells by their allies, or the player wins the combat. Sorta. Ish.

[Entropie]

There are a bunch of pitfalls if you rely on preknowledge of D&D rules (or the way BG, NWN etc implemented those rules).

To name some examples:

- The usual rules for what key attributes for a given class are can differ greatly.
Might (Which is essentially Strength) buffs the damage output be it physical attacks or spells.

- Everything needs to "hit" using an accuracy stat, for example there is no concept of reflex halfes for your fireball (thouh every attack (be it spell, AoE or physical) can crit, hit or graze depending on how much you beat a given "AC".

As a consequence of those two things already, if you play a mage and just max out Int and didn't buff your accuracy then your fireballs may just constantly deal no damage at all.


I'm not saying that the PoE system is bad (though I would prefer the oldschool approach personaly) but it is certainly different in its intricacies.

[Morphic]

Originally posted by Entropie:

There are a bunch of pitfalls if you rely on preknowledge of D&D rules (or the way BG, NWN etc implemented those rules).

To name some examples:

- The usual rules for what key attributes for a given class are can differ greatly.
Might (Which is essentially Strength) buffs the damage output be it physical attacks or spells.

- Everything needs to "hit" using an accuracy stat, for example there is no concept of reflex halfes for your fireball (thouh every attack (be it spell, AoE or physical) can crit, hit or graze depending on how much you beat a given "AC".

As a consequence of those two things already, if you play a mage and just max out Int and didn't buff your accuracy then your fireballs may just constantly deal no damage at all.


I'm not saying that the PoE system is bad (though I would prefer the oldschool approach personaly) but it is certainly different in its intricacies.

So much this! ^

Coming as a somewhat D&D nerd I ended up needing to Re-Roll ~5 hours in my first playthrough because I was treating this game like Baldur's Gate and Temple of Elemental Evil ... thinking my previous experiences were sufficient and I wasn't fully understanding all facets of combat.

What really throws you for a loop is the Fatigue / HP system. Most damage is first absorbed by Fatigue but can also deal HP damage plus most Healing options merely restore Fatigue and not HP. Add in the Graze < Hit < Crit. system for every form of attack, including Spells and the game is rather complex.

Personally I dislike many aspects and prefer the straight up Damage - DR = HP Damage type approach. However PoE's combat is rather refreshing in that it's similar but very different.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by Setzway:

Coming as a somewhat D&D nerd I ended up needing to Re-Roll ~5 hours in my first playthrough because I was treating this game like Baldur's Gate and Temple of Elemental Evil ... thinking my previous experiences were sufficient and I wasn't fully understanding all facets of combat.

What really throws you for a loop is the Fatigue / HP system. Most damage is first absorbed by Fatigue but can also deal HP damage plus most Healing options merely restore Fatigue and not HP. Add in the Graze < Hit < Crit. system for every form of attack, including Spells and the game is rather complex.

It's actually streamlined from D&D. The Health/Endurance thing is really to avoid having to rest after every encounter, while still making the resting mechanic important. Think of health as your overall HP pool and endurance is your HP for the battle you're in. Anything that hurts your endurance also hurts your health, if your health drops to zero you die (depending on your difficulty settings) and if your endurance drops to zero you're knocked unconscious.

It's not that bad compared to real damage and subdual damage in D&D as well as what happens when your HP drop below zero. Generally in D&D you're knocked unconscious if your HP <0 and don't die until your HP drop below some value (-10 or -Constitution depending on the edition).

The accuracy/defense system is much less complicated than D&D with its AB vs. 5 types of AC (and the whole normal attack, flatfooted and touch attack complications) and seperate saving throw system. Here you have accuracy and the 4 defenses: deflection (AC), fortitude, reflex and will (notice anything in common with the D&D saves). Basically you take the attacker's accuracy, subtract the defenders defence and add the result of a d100 (c.f. AB-AC+d20).

• if the result is <15, the attack misses
  
• if 15<=the result <=50, the attack is a graze (that does 50% damage/effect duration)
  
• if 50<the result <=100, the attack is a regular hit
  
• if the result is >100, the attack is a critical hit

I don't really like that spells use the same accuracy statistic and regular attacks, it leads to some wierd things like fighters are better scroll users than wizards because they have a higher accuracy, etc. But it works okay.

Personally I dislike many aspects and prefer the straight up Damage - DR = HP Damage type approach. However PoE's combat is rather refreshing in that it's similar but very different.

DR is in there as well and works the same way as D&D (with the excpetion that it can't reduce damage below 20%) as is damage immunity.

The system is very much a streamlined version of the 3.0 D&D system.

[Morphic]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

It's actually streamlined from D&D. The Health/Endurance thing is really to avoid having to rest after every encounter, while still making the resting mechanic important. Think of health as your overall HP pool and endurance is your HP for the battle you're in.

Except it's kinda not. While I appreciate the effort trying to avoid constant Resting, as was the norm, The Health/Endurance system isn't that great.

Essentially all forms of damage now deal both Lethal Damage(Damage done to HP) and Subdual Damage.(Damage done to Endurance) Whereas with D&D you only had specific types of attacks that could do both. It was an either/or situation. I either lost HP or accumalated Subdual Damage -> knocked unconcious if it exceeded current HP. Furthermore in PoE it is significantly easier to restore Endurance(which comes back anyway) than it is HP.

Originally posted by wendigo211:

The accuracy/defense system is much less complicated than D&D with its AB vs. 5 types of AC (and the whole normal attack, flatfooted and touch attack complications) and seperate saving throw system.

Not really. Granted PoE doesn't have Touch Attacks and Flatfooted penalties, now many Attacks literally have multiple applications. In D&D your AC basically trumped every form of physical attack, then your Saving Throws came into play for special attacks/effects. You either Hit, Crit. or you Missed.

With PoE this is radically different, especially so with how Defense is handled. If a Wizard shoots a Fireball and my Reflex is high or his Accuracy is low, I take 0 Damage. In D&D I'd need to be a high level Rogue to even have a chance of that happening.

Originally posted by wendigo211:

I don't really like that spells use the same accuracy statistic and regular attacks, it leads to some wierd things like fighters are better scroll users than wizards because they have a higher accuracy, etc. But it works okay.

Which makes no sense at all to me. Which is why I am not okay with it lol. I can tolerate it because it's a fun game but it's arguably more convoluted/complex than D&D is.

Originally posted by wendigo211:

DR is in there as well and works the same way as D&D (with the excpetion that it can't reduce damage below 20%) as is damage immunity.

The system is very much a streamlined version of the 3.0 D&D system.

Except everything gives DR now. You have Slash DR, Pierce DR, Crush DR, etc. my Fighter in Scale has ~10 Slash DR but only ~7 Pierce and 5 Crush DR. Meaning Pierce and Crush attacks will be significantly more effective ... provided the enemy's Accuracy is greater than my Deflection if they are using a Phys. Attack. If the enemy's attack is a Reflex based one; now it's his Accuracy vs my Reflex.

In D&D, barely anything gave DR because DR affected all forms of Damage. Not just specific types like we have in PoE.

This is why I argue that PoE isn't streamlined D&D at all. It's arguably just as convoluted/complex or moreso. I'm not going to argue and post at length about it because it's essentially an Apples to Oranges situation.

TLDR: PoE's Combat is not Steamlined D&D combat. If anything it's just as complex/convoluted. Personally I still prefer D&D since things; mainly Spells, are simpler. If I shot a Magic Missile at someone there was no Saving Throw/Defense, it just hit.

With PoE when I shoot a Magic Missile it's my Accuracy vs Enemy Deflection = Miss/Graze/Hit/Crit then MM Damage - Enemy Crush/Corrode DR = Damage done to Endurance/HP.

I mean if you played PoE's System on paper it seems like you'd be taking an extra 2-3 steps on all attacks than you would D&D. Thankfully it's not and thus enjoyable on PC.

[sonntam]

Originally posted by Setzway:

Originally posted by wendigo211:

It's actually streamlined from D&D. The Health/Endurance thing is really to avoid having to rest after every encounter, while still making the resting mechanic important. Think of health as your overall HP pool and endurance is your HP for the battle you're in.

Except it's kinda not. While I appreciate the effort trying to avoid constant Resting, as was the norm, The Health/Endurance system isn't that great.

Essentially all forms of damage now deal both Lethal Damage(Damage done to HP) and Subdual Damage.(Damage done to Endurance) Whereas with D&D you only had specific types of attacks that could do both. It was an either/or situation. I either lost HP or accumalated Subdual Damage -> knocked unconcious if it exceeded current HP. Furthermore in PoE it is significantly easier to restore Endurance(which comes back anyway) than it is HP.

So what's bad about that?

I liked the way health system works worked, because in some fights my characters had full Endurance, but dropped dead, because they took to much damage and their Health pool was empty. Simply tanking and letting damage get absorbed, because you can heal it anyway, stops being an option at some point. It makes things more complex, so I liked that.

With IWD I started to play and immediately noticed that I did two things: wanted to rest after every fight to get back health and hoarded spells and barely used any of them. It was a purely psychological problem that Endurance/Health system solved neatly. When I got more resting supplies than I could carry, I would rest. If Health got too low, I rested. If I got injuries, I rested. I got a good rhythm going for my resting decisions and by the time I usually rested my per rest spells were usually depleted.

It's not a problem everyone will have, but to it was godsend.

Originally posted by Setzway:

I mean if you played PoE's System on paper it seems like you'd be taking an extra 2-3 steps on all attacks than you would D&D. Thankfully it's not and thus enjoyable on PC.

I think my whole problem with DnD system games is that it's optimized for pen and paper and not for PC. What is extremely easy to handle if you play on paper, because needlessly convoluted when you play on PC. If you have never played a tabletop game in your life, all those mechanics seem illogical and strange. Is DR supposed to be low or hight? What's with all the dice rolls? Why can't the game just calculate the damage for me? What's with 2x6? Is a weapon with +6 1x6 better or worse? How exactly gets Health calculated and why does my warrior suddenly fall behind my paladin in terms of defense?

Pillars of Eternity is the type of system that is easy to understand, but not necessarily easy to calculate per hand. This also means it's less easy to min-max, but for a beginner there are no major roadblocks in terms of basic systems.

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by Setzway:

Essentially all forms of damage now deal both Lethal Damage(Damage done to HP) and Subdual Damage.(Damage done to Endurance) Whereas with D&D you only had specific types of attacks that could do both. It was an either/or situation. I either lost HP or accumalated Subdual Damage -> knocked unconcious if it exceeded current HP.

Which is why PoE is simpler, everything gets handled the same way and there are no exceptions. There is no digging through the rule book to see what kind of damage an attack does.

Furthermore in PoE it is significantly easier to restore Endurance(which comes back anyway) than it is HP.

It's actually pretty easy, every spell restores endurance. Restoring health is only done by resting or a couple of first aid talents you can choose at level up.

Not really. Granted PoE doesn't have Touch Attacks and Flatfooted penalties, now many Attacks literally have multiple applications. In D&D your AC basically trumped every form of physical attack, then your Saving Throws came into play for special attacks/effects. You either Hit, Crit. or you Missed.

With PoE this is radically different, especially so with how Defense is handled. If a Wizard shoots a Fireball and my Reflex is high or his Accuracy is low, I take 0 Damage. In D&D I'd need to be a high level Rogue to even have a chance of that happening.

To start with Evasion is not a particularly high level ability, IIRC 1st level Monk, 3rd level Rogue, 8th level Ranger and a ton of prestige classes.

Secondly in PoE, it's the same mechanic used for everything, while grazes are something new, again it's one attack mechanism for everything. There are no DC checks. There is no regular deflection and touch deflection. The saves are still there, but they are now different types of defenses. Instead of making a reflex save against the DC of a spell when you cast a fireball, you make an attack against the reflex defense. Instead of having two mechanisms, you have one mechanism.

Don't forget that in D&D touch attack spells can have critical hits, and spells can have multiple forms of resolution: Ranged touch attack, melee touch attack, regular attack, DC check, grapple check, charge attack, certain number of hitpoints, certain number of hitdice, certain alignment etc. In PoE, while spells can be defended against by multiple defenses (n.b. there are D&D spells that force multiple saves like Phantasmal Killer), it's the same mechanic for every defense.

Except everything gives DR now. You have Slash DR, Pierce DR, Crush DR, etc. my Fighter in Scale has ~10 Slash DR but only ~7 Pierce and 5 Crush DR. Meaning Pierce and Crush attacks will be significantly more effective ... provided the enemy's Accuracy is greater than my Deflection if they are using a Phys. Attack. If the enemy's attack is a Reflex based one; now it's his Accuracy vs my Reflex.

In D&D, barely anything gave DR because DR affected all forms of Damage. Not just specific types like we have in PoE.

D&D has two forms of DR, damage resistance (which is PoEs DR) and damage reduction (you need a weapon of the specified type to bypass damage). I wouldn't call either rare in D&D. Skeletons have slashing and peircing damage resistance, Zombies have crushing and peircing damage resistance and I don't even want to start listing all the types of creatures with some kind of elemental damage resistance. Then you have damage reduction either against a certain magic level (e.g. Ghostly Visage) or materials (e.g. fey enemies with cold iron DR or lycanthropes with silver DR).

TLDR: PoE's Combat is not Steamlined D&D combat. If anything it's just as complex/convoluted. Personally I still prefer D&D since things; mainly Spells, are simpler. If I shot a Magic Missile at someone there was no Saving Throw/Defense, it just hit.

PoE's combat is streamlined because there are fewer mechanisms. Magic Missile is a bit disingenuous because it is a very simple D&D spell, no save and Force damage is rarely resisted. What about casting Fireball against that Aasimar Monk? Ray of Frost against a Frost Giant? How about Flame Strike against a Vampire? Bigby's Forceful Hand against an Ogre? Ghoul Touch against a Thri-Kreen?

I mean if you played PoE's System on paper it seems like you'd be taking an extra 2-3 steps on all attacks than you would D&D. Thankfully it's not and thus enjoyable on PC.

Actually you wouldn't: It's attack roll, damage calculation and DR modification of that damage, which is how the majority of attacks in D&D are calculated. It's just this mechanism is used for everything. You would however spend far less time digging through rulebooks to figure out what mechanism is being used or special rule applies in this situation.

[Bmorekareful]

kinda