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This is the part I don't get and maybe it's worth it to clear it for everyone who will be contributing to this thread.
Hired "adventurers" are always at least 1 level lower than you, but they level up and progress in levels just as you do. Which means that until you hit the level cap (if you always keep them in your party) they will constantly grow in power but always lag just 1 level behind your main character.
At this point in the story you should be around level 4, and indeed you claim to have level 3 and 2 hirelings and a level 1 rogue.
My question is - why? Why are they not all the same level (3)?
Is it because you did not have the money and bought the cheaper low-level versions? (but you said it yourself that you hired your rogue only after selling the loot from Raedric's guards which should net you enough money to hire the max level version).
In short: why are you hiring adventurers more than 1 level below your current one?
Seriously...I think you're just mistaken about mechanics.
- When you get the story NPC party members they level up to your level. You get to level them up and pick their stats which I do like...They come with a magic weapon or piece of armor or two that probably would have cost you more than you can afford at that time.
- When you hire a party member, you have to pay for EACH level, like 250 for level 1, 500 for level 2...and so on. They come with bare minimum gear, a mundane armor and weapon.
Then on top of that....
- If you hire them when you're at a point where you have done all the quests in the areas up to that point and finally have enough gold to hire them, you'll likely be at the developer imposed "level cap" and guess what: Your party stops gaining XP too!
That's right: So in my case I have a level 2 priest with me, I was at the level 4 cap and gaining no more XP in combat...neither was the priest. In fact it was kind of infuriating because they stopped somewhat close to level 3, and after grueling fight after fight in readric's castle...nothing. I literally had to backtrack out from the top and out of the sewers, and move around to load new areas to get that last 200XP for her to get level 3....
Which means already I'm meta-gaming and using artificial means to circumvent the developers imposed limitations. So much for that lofty role play experience...
So I really don't think you understand the mechanics or it's been too long since you played and perhaps you aren't remembering correctly?
I know you want to believe otherwise, but I'm actually pretty experienced in this type of CRPG.
That's why this system it so poorly thought out IMO: I know what they are going for, this sort of lofty experience where they want you to play through their narrative and not just grind your way to victory. I get that approach NOW that I've played some of the game.
But while we're on the topic, why is my character some world bending watcher with mystical powers...and I don't know the story but clearly I'm "special" and "chosen" whether it's by forces of evil, neutrality, or good... can we have a game where you play a regular person that becomes the hero of the story as you play because you rise to greatness, not a chosen one following the great destiny the devs have laid out?
If you can tell me honestly that this "watcher" thing is where it ends, and the ability to see people's souls isn't part of some great cosmic plan to which you are the key in one way or another...I might be interested in starting again.
But honestly, how many times must I play the special unique snowflake chosen by the gods to save or destroy the world? Can we have a narrative where the hero is defined by his actions and shaped by the world, not moving along a dotted line laid out by destiny?
Sorry, needed to get that rant out too.
(I don't mean it in a condescending way, just trying to be helpful)
Probably we are arguing semantics and talking about the same thing, but you don't have to pay for each level (i.e. you don't pay to level up), yet the cost for a higher-level adventurer is greater.
If your main character is level 4 you have the option to hire a level 3 rogue for 750 gold.
So if you have enough money you should always hire an adventurer at his max level (1 level below your main char).
Even in this case it is mathematically possible for your hirelings to be 2 levels lower than you at lower levels (later it evens out).
If for example you hired your level 2 priest (with 1.000 xp) while you were still level 3 but at 5,990xp, then by the time you hit level 4, your priest will still stay at level 2.
But that still does not explain why your rogue is level 1.
So like I said: You have to spend more to get an adventurer closer to your level...
To get gold you have to explore, probably kills stuff, loot, and complete quests.
Now...maybe there's an exploit or something I don't know about to get a bunch of gold early on...but to get the gold needed to hire adventurers at your level means that's all you're spending gold on for a while...and at the same time carefully not trying to complete quests or gain too much combat XP. Which also means you'll be either selling useful inventory items that might come in handy later IE: potions and scrolls, and not upgrading or buying stronger weapons and gear.
It's poorly thought out. New characetrs should be able to get some XP even if higher level party members no longer can. Seems like an oversight or a blindspot in their high minded attempts to be "above grinding"...or whatever they are trying to prove.
Again TL:DR version: everything is finite in this game, and for the Xp system that goes double...which is absolutely punitive.
Without using advanced meta-knowledge and manipulating game mechanics in unrealistic ways, the whole "immersive role playing adventure" thing the developers seem to be pushing by limiting Xp fails if you try and start with a custom party.
It's not about that. PoE system is heavily inspired by DnD and IE games, but at the same time it is also quite different. This is actually one of the main problems with it - people start playing it as if it were DnD and it certainly feels and looks familiar - but the mechanics under the hood are different. So unless you really read a lot about it on the forums, guides or the wiki, you might really miss some of the essential aspects. It is the case when your prior experience with CRPGs may actually make you miss some things.
People come to PoE with prior experience in IE games or other crpgs and dump Might on mages or Intelligence on Barbarians. They see "engagement" mechanic and expect it to provide aggro, they create "shield walls" expecting them to "tank" and stop enemies from attacking the backline casters, etc., etc.
For example if you start playing on Expert Mode right off the bat and don't extensively study spell system, you might miss the fact that friendly fire AoE spells actually have 2 different areas of effect: a zone that harms everyone, and a zone that harms only your enemies but not your party members. You might not notice it at all if you don't read about it specifically in the manual or some other source. Being able to see these AoE zones arguably adds another strategic layer to battles and makes positioning more meaningful.
I'm not talking about you specifically though. Just trying to explain why Expert Mode is not the best way to learn the ropes.
If you want challenge - start on Path of the Damned but on normal mode. It actually teaches you to pay more attention to mechanics than Expert Mode.
Stop!
The combat mechanics are fine, I have been able to figure out the spells and their effects, and they do tell you if you read the descriptions in game and it makes sense and I have been able to use them to my advantage, and my shield wall holds up pretty well outside of teleporting enemies, but I have alternate weapon sets and other strategies for that.
(for example, my barbarian is built to be mobile and disengage with minimal penalty so they can run and pick off enemies that come after my cipher and priest )
Stop trying to defend this by claiming I'm too stupid to figure out systems that are similar enough to dozens of games I've played.
I really like the combat mechanics, so far it's the best part of the game...and if there was a normal XP system that wasn't trying to be cute and clever and punish certain play styles I would probably be halfway through the game by now.
That is not the issue.
Come on man, stop trying to sell me trash.
Either admit that it is much harder and almost game breaking (in a bad way) to start with a custom party...or actually refute what I typed with factual information.
Again: Creating your own characters costs money in a game where you start with very little and it is initially hard to earn. Most gold is earned through exploration and questing which will level up your main character...requiring you to spend more if you want to hire them closer to your level.
Multiply that by 4 or 5 at the start of the game.
Come on man, stop trying to sugar coat this. You like the system how it works for your playstyle and what you want out of an RPG, but it runs counter to my style. I just wish I knew about this before I wasted money on it.
The "watcher" thing is not where it ends, but I can honestly tell you that you are not a chosen one or part of some great cosmic plan or prophecy :)
I don't like PoE's writing or the way the story is presented to you, but the concept of the story's great reveal is quite interesting, even though a lot of people did not get it or just plain hated it.
As for XP system:
- custom made hirelings have potential to be more powerful than story companions, so they are slightly nerfed in the very beginning to balance the game (and as it has been mentioned before story companions have unoptimal stat allocation that you can't change);
- once you get past Caed Nua you will start to find dozens of magical items that will make the difference in basic starting equipment irrelevant;
- personally I prefer xp rewards only for goal achievement/quest completion/exploration: it prevents grinding and makes all aproaches equally viable. This system was used in Deus Ex, Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, Shadowrun and many other games. (You can stealth through the entirety of Raedric's Keep and complete the quest without having to fight a single guard or the Lord himself, just kill some easy undead in the basement. Killing everyone in the castle gives you a lot of valuable loot to sell for good money though.)
- Why do you refuse to move further down the story line? It will open up a larger portion of the world for you to explore and level up your party members.
- Not all fights are easily winnable the first time you encounter them, sometimes you should make a strategic retreat and come back later. This was often the case with older crpgs, you should know that.
Edit: just play the game further, your problem with xp mechanics will become a non-issue once you get past Caed Nua - you will swim in money, items and experience points. You are very early in the game, give it a chance.
P.S. if you have trouble with the regular guards, you will likely have a huge unpleasant surprise if you decide to fight Lord Raedric when you reach him.
- the XP system was not built with this in mind in the early game
- the XP system is not well explained and confusing without digging into external resources
- Personally I like XP rewards for combat, quests, and skill uses...but ONLY the combat XP stops...or do you eventually stop getting XP rewards for quests and lockpicking/trap disarming etc?
Because what that tells me is the game very much wants to force you to play it's way and punishes those who do otherwise. Just like how it punishes you severely early on for trying to use a custom team.
"but later after this other place"...is not helpful when the game more or less forces you to go back and get the pre-made companions in order to get there in the first place.
Imagine an action game where you could play as different professions, but they put a locked door that requires maxed out skills only a thief could have to get past... You wanted to play a brawler or a sniper, but they can't get past that door without extensive meta-knowledge or an exploit.
That would be BAD DESIGN.
Hired adventurers work the same way as "named companions" do - except for two things :
1. when you hire them, they are 1 level under you (as someone above said, if you are level 5, you can recruit a max level 4 adventurer)
2. you get to customize his attributes and skills, to your liking (which actually off-sets their underlevel penalty, since you can choose the best attributes and spells possible)
Example, Aloth doesn't really have the best 1st level spells when you encounter him (debatable), neither does he have the best attributes. You can make an adventurer wizard with 19 might and 19 intelligence, which will deal far more damage and have a greater aoe with Fan of Flames than Aloth.
As with XP thing...I don't understand and I am sure neither does the rest following your thread, what the hell are you on with "adventurers don't level as companions do".
Yes, when you meet any companion in-game, say Durance, he will get scaled to your level and XP currently you have. If you have level 5 and 11 000 xp in progress bar, he will get something like 10 500 xp and same level as you.
Adventurers from tavern, will be maximum level 4 recruitable in this point. But it is level 4, with the skills and attributes of your choosing !
And again, for "they don't level the same as companions do"...you actually learn party XP whenever you earn XP (doesn't matter if it is monster XP, or trap disam XP, or location discovered XP, or Quest XP) - it's all the same !
This XP is divided to the number of your party, and each gets an equal share. Named companions, and hired adventurers, same way. Same mechanic.
And Yes, having a smaller party makes you level slightly faster, since the earned party XP won't be divided to whole group.
So I don't know wtf your rant is on, with hired adventurers being worse than named companions ; or that the game is forcing you in any way to use one or the other.
And neither one here does.
As for your gold/ grind lamenting, I play on hard as you do - just not expert mode. At the same point as you are, when I had to go to either Raedric's Keep or Caed Nua (the rest was all done), I had 4 400 copper. I was level 4...I don't think it's possible to get level 5 before this point, I did all the quests and tasks and killed everything, including trap disarms. So this means I could get level 3 adventurers.
How much is level 3 adventurer, 750 copper ? With 4 400 I could get 5 of them, as close as I can to my level.
And think of it that marching with 5 adventurers level 3 in Raedric's Keep is far better than with 3 named companions level 4.
And this is only if I consider buying the adventurers when I was already level 4...if I would have hired adventurers from level 1, I would have paid...250 copper ? With 1 000 copper you have 4 adventurers, ready to be leveled as you complete quests and what not.
So what's the lament, really ?
And learning about XP from external sources ?! It's as plain as simple as it gets for kills, you see in the log how much % of the bestiary you completed, and how much XP your earned for that percentage. You learn monster XP until you get "to know" the monster itself (100% bestiary progression), then it stops.
The same with party XP. It is written with big and green letters. How much explanatory you want it to be ?
I swear people aren't actually reading what I'm typing, I even put it in snappy bullet points.
- early in the game you lack the gold to hire a custom party PERIOD
- the only way to get enough gold is to complete quests, explore, and fight monsters
- the XP and gold you can gain is finite and micromanaged by the game design
Therefore in order to play through the game with a custom team, you will have to figure out a way to earn the most gold with the minimum XP gain, so that when you hire your custom team:
- you will be low enough to hire them at a price you can afford
- there will be enough of the finite XP gain from monsters or quests left over to be able to progress reasonably without further extreme manipulation of games mechanics
Please explain where I'm wrong, specifically...not "later X or Y" not "you can make them optimized"...I'm talking the actual practice of playing the game with a custom team...without exploits or extreme manipulation of mechanics or spoiler sequence breaks.
Alright, if you want it this way.
OF COURSE the game won't let you hire 5 adventurers when you reach Gilded Vale first time. You will have around 250 copper, enough to hire 1 single adventurer...same as getting Aloth in your party.
Then you do 1 task around town, like you would do normally with Aloth. You get find gold & loot, get quest rewards. You hire another one. Just like getting Eder. You move to next area - either explore or do another task. You find again loot to sell. You sell > you make gold > you buy another adventurer, just like getting Durance.
So you see, you get in the beginning just the enough to get the same party size, as you would get by "recruiting" named companions.
But this is a small estimation...I am sure by the point I reached Anslog Compass, I had more than 1 000 copper, enough to hire 4 of them at once. Sure...I played with named companions. But still, it's enough for you to get going.
And mind, when I said above in the other post I had 4 400 copper before Raedric's Keep...I actually didn't sell anything. Not a single item.
It was 4 400, just earned from quests rewards and looting monsters/ bandits. If I would have sold the things I found, I would have had even more.
I think you're lying about the amount of gold you have. I had about that much gold after looting a ton of corpses in Readric's keep and under the Gilded Vale in the temple with a party of 3 mostly, then I grabbed a priest to help heal and buff us...but I hadn't yet figured out the punitive system yet, so I hired her at level 1...and then she got to level 2 fairly easily because I hadn't reached the arbitrary combat XP cap yet and I still had the retrieving the shipment for the smith quest to do.
Oh, and like I mentioned...I had Eder with me, or it would have been completely impossible to even get as far as I did!
But...she was stuck at an extremely squishy and underpowered level 2 while looting every corpse and every chest in Raerdric's keep until the higher floors where the preists, guards, archers, and paladins just over-ran us in numbers and the ability to flank and chew up endurance faster than we could heal.
Are you playing on Hard and Expert? I'm not sure I would enjoy the game on casual difficulty either.
Speaking about other's not reading what one does type...
Funny you complain about others. I already told you above.