WHY isn't the Cipher considered the single best class in the game?

[ChuckDM]

see title. I'm not saying it is. Clearly there's some reason why everyone thinks the Wizard or Druid or Rogue or whatever is better. I'm not arguing I'm right. I'm only asking for an explanation.

My theory is thus: the Cipher has the most Raw damage (that is, Raw-type damage, not like "raw dps") in the game, both single-target and AoE. Thus, logically, since this damage type negates all DR, it stands to reason Raw damage is both A) more powerful than every other damage type and B) gets more and more powerful the higher you crank up the difficulty. This would seem to indicate that a Cipher is better on Easy, much better on Hard, and outright broken on PotD. I've not tried PotD yet, but I just can't see how that'd make a difference. Everyone says PotD just cranks up all the enemy stats, but with effectively 0DR, all enemies will melt, no?

I am aware that rogues have a talent that adds a very small amount of Raw-type damage to their attacks, and that Wizards have at least 1 Raw-type spell. As far as I know, no other class has nearly as many Raw-type damage options as the Cipher though. This, combined with more mind control options than any other class, and I'm just not seeing how the other classes even compete.

Someone please tell me what I'm missing here. I've gotten halfway through Act 3 on 4 different classes now - Druid, Ranger, Cipher, and Wizard. My Wizard and Cipher are both max level (I believe my Druid and Ranger are both 15 because I've skipped most side quests with them) and I feel confident saying the Cipher is just better. Show me the error of my ways, please.

Oh and be nice. I'm not trying to start a flamewar here. I'm asking a serious question. Please give a serious answer.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

For a party based playthrough? Or also solo?

Let's not forget that the Cipher class comes with "Very Low" base Endurance and "Low" Health.

Have you played a Chanter yet? Unlimited regeneration of Endurance, unlimited summons, unlimited spells via invocations, unlimited area damage via phrases and invocations.

[ChuckDM]

For either, but for the sake of argument, let's say you recruit Eder and nobody else. Now you have someone who can take a little aggro off you, but practically, you're the sole source of damage for the party.

As I understand it (and again, I am not claiming to be the be-all-end-all here) endurance is not as important as damage output for survivability in this game. This is especially true for a Cipher due to nearly all spells being either a "fast" or "average" cast time, and castable the instant combat starts (provided you build for enough starting/opening focus.) I mean, if you kill 4/10 enemies and mind control 2 more (dominate one, charm another) within 3 seconds of starting combat, you just don't need much endurance to finish off the remainder.

Wizards have the same endurance/health, or close to it, yet they are constantly cited as one of the 2 or 3 best classes all over the internet. And their spells actually get resisted to some degree. Raw-type damage doesn't.

I have not played a chanter, however my Ranger has only Kana as a party member. If I can't kill an enemy after the first 12+ seconds of combat (which almost never happens on Hard, combat seldom lasts that long) then Kana's buffs are strong, but not game-breakingly strong. I've not paid much attention to how well Kana himself does, but as a buffer, he seems like he only really shines in long fights, and I tend to end most fights before they become "long" by any definition.

He is hilarious though. I always enjoy the "doesn't understand the local customs but tries really hard to" character in any RPG.

As I understand it, Chanter endurance regeneration requires you slot in the relevant phrase, which in turn means you're not chanting something else like a damage buff or such, right? I know the phrases overlap, but still. Meanwhile a Fighter can trigger Veteran's Recovery in the middle of combat then just go right back to attacking while he self-heals. Chanter's heal would certainly be great, again, in long boss fights with a large party. Especially given it doesn't have a range limit like even most Priest AoE heals.

But it still doesn't seem better for damage, and again, if you kill fast enough, what else actually matters?

[ChuckDM]

Just a short followup about the solo/party question:

On all 4 of my main saves, I've recruited every person I can find, but also as soon as I unlock Caer Nua, I leave all but one of them there. I find that combat is the right amount of challenging for me in a 2-person party. Thus, my Druid has Sagani, my Cipher has Eder BUT I spent all of Act 2 solo (and actually did more than half the side quests), my Wizard has Durance (and uses mostly fire spells), and my Ranger has Kana. I find these pairings synergize well for different reasons and having just 2 characters really streamlines combat because I don't have to pause every 2 seconds to issue 6-8 new orders.

But my question is not dependent on this, I think. If you throw heavy armor on a Cipher, they still cast more Raw-type damage with lower cast times than most Druid or Wizard spells. My cipher never had any issues soloing Hard for all of Act 2. Even in the Sanitarium fight that is arguably the hardest fight in the game (yes, Act 2 enemies are not as hard as Act 3 enemies, but then by Act 2 you are usually not maxed level or in god-tier gear, either.)

[The Dude]

Why? Because some twits whined about mind blades being OP. :grumble:

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by ChuckDM:

I have not played a chanter

Would you please return to the topic after evaluating the Chanter class up to higher levels?

Originally posted by ChuckDM:

As I understand it, Chanter endurance regeneration requires you slot in the relevant phrase, which in turn means you're not chanting something else like a damage buff or such, right?

No, the Chanter's endurance regeneration comes from passive class talents, such as Ancient Memory and Beloved Spirits, or both: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Chanter

[ChuckDM]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

Would you please return to the topic after evaluating the Chanter class up to higher levels?

No, I don't intend to leave my own topic for 3-4 days to go play a class I have no interest in.

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

No, the Chanter's endurance regeneration comes from passive class talents, such as Ancient Memory and Beloved Spirits, or both: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Chanter

And that's very good to know, useful information. It also doesn't address my main point: what difference does this make if I can still annihilate a dozen late game enemies inside 15 seconds, solo, with my Cipher? Why do you think the most important factor is either endurance or endurance regeneration if I can DPS so hard with a Cipher that I don't take much damage to begin with?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I believe your criteria for "best" is neither the same as my criteria for "best" nor the same as the vast majority of players. Most people seem to agree that burst damage is the most important aspect of combat in this game, i.e. the faster you down hostiles, the less you have to survive from them. This is why you never, ever see someone claiming a Chanter is the best class (aside from, apparently, you.) Everyone seems to agree it's either a Rogue, a Wizard, or a Druid. My question was merely how is the Cipher not better than THOSE classes. It never occurred to me someone would seriously try to argue the Chanter is the best class in the game. Like, ever.

And you may be right, but if you are, wow, you've stumbled upon a truly well-kept secret. I read easily 30+ "best class" threads before I created this one. Literally nobody ever said Chanter.

In any case, Kana is level 16 in my Ranger playthrough. As I said, I'm not noticing anything special there. If those talents are even available on Kana, then I either missed them, or else they only affect Kana, because my Ranger's only regeneration is coming from Veteran's Recovery. He's doing me zero good at all because, again, I'm ending 90% or more of my fights before he even finishes his second Phrase, and that's with my Ranger, who kills half as fast as my Cipher. I still like him for the character's humor, but his class ain't helping me one bit.

In any case, if you think it's that strong, I'll go give Chanter a whirl this weekend. I can't imaginable I'll enjoy it, but I'll try.

Still, I wouldn't consider that a valid answer to my original question. How is Cipher not considered better than a Wizard or Druid, or even a Rogue? I know rogues have the "highest single target damage" but...do they really? I mean, Recall Agony + Disintegration + Silent Scream + Detonate can be pulled off in about 8 clock seconds and inflicts a total of 525 Raw Damage that bypasses all DR. You will need to land ONE hit with a Blunderbuss between Disintegration and Silent Scream to do this, which will tack on another 40 or so damage (plus a Stun and some bonus AoE damage from Silent Scream). How can a rogue compete with this? I guess that was my question. How can a class that can do THAT be somehow inferior to 4 hits from 2 stilettos (which do NOT magically bypass DR and will be GREATLY decreased by it) with even a 5x stealth multiplier, which I believe is more than the game even allows?

[Arrrtyom]

Originally posted by ChuckDM:

Recall Agony + Disintegration + Silent Scream + Detonate can be pulled off in about 8 clock seconds and inflicts a total of 525 Raw Damage that bypasses all DR. You will need to land ONE hit with a Blunderbuss between Disintegration and Silent Scream to do this,

How do you get enough focus to do all this at the start of battle? I don't think blunderbusses would work well against higher DR. Also isn't this only for one target (barring silent scream)? Anyway I haven't played any solo playthroughs so I don't really know your battle strat.

I don't like chanters as well because their spells aren't on-demand, but maybe they're treated differently in potd where fights are generally longer.

[Travathian]

What difficulty do you play on?

And why are you assuming your focus will be maxed at the start of each fight?

[Radical Rat]

I used melee cipher during my last playthrough on Hard... she was really fun to play
With self buffs and Deadfire armor ( well... before nerf ) she had more deflection than my primary tank, and with twin daggers she hit so fast that she could spam Amplified Wave over and over again before enemies managed to get up. Not to mention all other versitile spells giving her control over battlefield. Definitely one of my favourite classes.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by ChuckDM:

No, I don't intend to leave my own topic for 3-4 days to go play a class I have no interest in.

Uhuh, see topic subject once more? You've raised a question, and I give you feedback.

Originally posted by ChuckDM:

And that's very good to know, useful information. It also doesn't address my main point: what difference does this make if I can still annihilate a dozen late game enemies inside 15 seconds, solo, with my Cipher?

What makes you think you can? You need to build up a lot of focus first, which involves ordinary attacks via melee/ranged combat. Meanwhile, you are busy kiting or facing heavy attacks once your figurine summons have been killed.

Originally posted by ChuckDM:

Why do you think the most important factor is either endurance or endurance regeneration

I don't think that. What makes you think I did? I've mentioned a couple of very important class traits. Unlimited regeneration is only sugar on top.

Originally posted by ChuckDM:

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I believe your criteria for "best" is neither the same as my criteria for "best" nor the same as the vast majority of players.

Then solo the entire game with a Cipher and unlock The Ultimate achievement that way.

Originally posted by ChuckDM:

Most people seem to agree

Where do they do that?

Originally posted by ChuckDM:

Everyone seems to agree it's either a Rogue, a Wizard, or a Druid.

Where do they do that? Here at Steam and in the official forum there is agreement that the Rogue is one of the weakest classes in this game. It's nice and all that somebody managed to get The Ultimate using a Rogue, but it takes insane amounts of kiting in several fights, such as the one against Llengrath. Rogue is much too fragile. Playing party rogues, you can min/max them as glass-cannon flankers, but they don't offer much with regard to afflictions, for example.

Wizard is hindered by lack of prebuffing in this game and lack of spell sequencers. The only option is to start combat, then go through a tedious, repetitive chain of casting at least three spells to raise speed, protections and spell Accuracy. By the time you are ready, other classes have saved your a** already.

Druid is good for party based playthroughs, too, and a bit more versatile due to party support spells and better area damage options than Wizard.

[Radical Rat]

Nuff said:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R8c6Y7DUUJo

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by rusty-double-oh-seven:

Nuff said:

There is enough that comes to mind. The cipher barely survived several attacks, almost got knocked out, had a lot of luck and had to drink potions frequently. Okay, that's not forbidden. But then look what happens early! Scroll of Confusion is used multiple times instead of Cipher powers. Booohoo! Reverting to the character sheet at the beginning, the video maker scrolls down too quickly. One needs to pause the video at the right moment to see how the exceptionally high attributes explain themselves. INT 29. The Cipher has consumed not only ordinary food, but rare Mind Grub.

Once you exploit drugs, rare food and highly specialized equipment in addition to getting bonuses from more ordinary sources, such as inn resting and food, characters get much stronger in this game for sure. Still, the Cipher didn't offer compelling performance at the beginning of the fight.

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, yeah... but he made it.
Solo & naked.

For me it's enough

[ChuckDM]

@D'amarr I can't argue with selective quoting, so I won't try. As to "who says rogue/wizard/druid is best?" how about these:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/92129-the-final-most-overpowered-class-build-thread/
https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/74642-ultimate-dps-class-roguecipherbarabarian/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/291650/discussions/0/350544272220336814/

I could go on, but I'll just assume you get the point. All of those threads specifically claim the Rogue has the best single-target damage. In fact, even their official wiki entry says as much: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Rogue

And as for "build a lot of focus first" well let's see...at level 16 I start EVERY SINGLE ENCOUNTER with 60 because that's the resting point if you have Greater Focus. I can cast the exact single-target chain I mentioned in the order I mentioned it with that. I MIGHT have to wait for one more gunshot first, but I usually don't. I'm not sure if you're joking about blunderbuss DR or what? The point of Blunderbuss isn't to deal damage, it's to build focus because Soul Whip triggers per-hit. Those builds have been all over the internet since before the game hit actual public release, and they still work.

@rusty ty for proving my point. can someone please post another class - rogue, druid, wizard, or hey, even a chanter - pulling this off? This is how you should judge a class. strip it down to absolute nothing and see what it can do.

I mean, imagine if you had a Lead Spitter and a Durgan'd Vengiatta Rugia in that fight. Now imagine an ideal weapon+armor combo for any of those other classes and ask yourself if you think it'd be as OP as this?

Anyhow, I suppose I am done with my little thread here. My googling today (to find linkage) turned up a lot more people who are at least aware how powerful the Cipher is. I had a hard time finding them before and was under the impression that this was the super-secret master class of the game but apparently no, many people do get it.

And yes, I am going to start a Chanter playthrough tonight. I am extremely skeptical it'll be nearly as adept at killing as my Cipher (or even my Ranger, lol) but I suppose there is something to be said for health regen and such. I'm just hoping the Chanter has more start-of-combat capability than he appears to at first glance, or else he's going in the trash bin with my old Barbarian save.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by rusty-double-oh-seven:

Yeah, yeah... but he made it.
Solo & naked.

For me it's enough :lernie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoAhw6UfL-I