Cipher Question

[ColeTrain1034]

Hello all.

I'm towards the beginning of a Cipher run, and believe it or not, I've never played a Cipher before (I know, they're supposed to be amazing, but I'm just getting around to it). Now, I'm at the point where I need to start making some real commitments to what direction I'm going to take my character in, but I'm split between two:

1. Crazy Awesome DPS
2. Crazy Awesome Crowd-control

As you can see, either would be crazy awesome. But essentially, my character could go either way and, since I have zero experience with Ciphers, I was just wondering what the masses would suggest. Of the Cipher powers, which ones do you think are more effective, which ones work well with a party set-up (I'm probably going to stick mostly with Eder, Pallegina, Aloth, Durance, and Kana - I'm thinking of carrying this character over to Deadfire), etc.?

Just FYI, my build is as follows:

Meadow Folk

Might: 16
Constitution: 9
Dexterity: 10
Perception: 15
Intellect: 18
Resolve: 10

And I'm playing on Hard.

All suggestions are welcome.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Due to Meadow Folk I would choose Ruffian weapon focus and play the Cipher like a melee flanker Rogue. That also covers Pistol and Blunderbuss, but for ranged Ciphers I prefer Wood Elf with bows.

DEX is kinda low for my taste, since using cipher powers takes time, and to build up Focus for the high-level powers, the cipher must hit often and fast.

CON 9 increases fragility. RES 10 cannot avoid that. RES could be lowered a few points more.

What else? Cipher will compete with Aloth, which reduces the fun a lot, and choosing cipher powers that cause different afflictions than the most favorite spells you will choose for Aloth is a workaround. If Aloth is the one to blind enemies, doing the same with the Cipher gets boring quickly. I would not restrict the Cipher to either 1) or 2) but learn a good mix of powers, including some that give support to allies.

With Eder, Aloth, Kana and Pellegina in the party, PER 15 and INT 18, I would invest into fast focus building, high melee/ranged Accuracy and neglect options to increase melee/ranged damage.

[ColeTrain1034]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

Due to Meadow Folk I would choose Ruffian weapon focus and play the Cipher like a melee flanker Rogue. That also covers Pistol and Blunderbuss, but for ranged Ciphers I prefer Wood Elf with bows.

That was the plan. I think I want to multi-class Cipher and Rogue in Deadfire, so I'm getting a leg up on that kind of strategizing.

Right now, I have a Hunting Bow as my second weapon slot, but I was planning on switching to guns when more were available to me. Good idea, or you think I should stick with the Hunting Bow?

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

DEX is kinda low for my taste, since using cipher powers takes time, and to build up Focus for the high-level powers, the cipher must hit often and fast.

I forgot to mention, those attributes don't include the items I have equipped. I've already got some Dex-increasing equipment (i.e. Fulvano's Gloves) and use attack-speed increasing drugs pretty frequently (he might be a Svef addict...). I am primarily using melee weapons, all of the "Fast" or "Accurate" variety.

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

CON 9 increases fragility. RES 10 cannot avoid that. RES could be lowered a few points more.

Yeah, I was kind of keeping that for roleplaying purposes, but the more I play, the more I'm considering re-specing that.

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

What else? Cipher will compete with Aloth, which reduces the fun a lot, and choosing cipher powers that cause different afflictions than the most favorite spells you will choose for Aloth is a workaround. If Aloth is the one to blind enemies, doing the same with the Cipher gets boring quickly. I would not restrict the Cipher to either 1) or 2) but learn a good mix of powers, including some that give support to allies

So, here's the big question. If Aloth's spells conflict with the Cipher's powers, but keeping a Cipher well-rounded is the smartest option, should I maybe try to specialize Aloth in a certain field? Or do you think it would be more beneficial to let my Cipher be well-rounded and just remove Aloth from my party and replace him with, I don't know, Hiravias? I was really only keeping Aloth around for Deadfire carry-over, but I suppose I could just complete his companion quest as needed and substitute him throughout the rest of the game.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Aloth vs. Cipher could be a matter of taste. It may work for you. You'll need to find out yourself.

Of course you can give Aloth grimoires with spells that don't cause the same afflictions as the cipher's lesser powers. You can also choose to not make Aloth learn similar spells - but Aloth can learn all spells, and at start of combat, he is "ready to rumble", may buff himself and cast something powerful almost immediately, whereas the Cipher needs to launch attacks with ordinary weapons to build up focus first, before higher level powers can be accessed. The minimum focus threshold at start of combat is only suitable for using e.g. level 1 powers once. And as you can learn only a very few cipher powers during level up, you need to specialize in a few powers that may still make a difference even if Aloth typically is the who turns the tide of combat early. The Cipher contributing something later during combat then isn't as satisfying anymore. Restricting Aloth to damage spells isn't satisfying either, because he is more valuable as a disabler. Hiravias, on the other hand, knows an interesting mix of spells including party support. More options!

Guns vs. bows boils down to personal taste, too. If you like Kana's special support phrase to speed up reloading, guns get a bit more interesting beyond start of combat. A series of quick attacks with a bow will be the better choice in my opinion to continue building up focus with a Cipher. Once Kana knows The Dragon Trashed, The Dragon Wailed phrase, it would be a waste to make him use support phrases often.

But "Hard" difficulty requirements aren't so special anyway - there are many party and character building options for that mode.

[ColeTrain1034]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

Aloth vs. Cipher could be a matter of taste. It may work for you. You'll need to find out yourself.

Of course you can give Aloth grimoires with spells that don't cause the same afflictions as the cipher's lesser powers. You can also choose to not make Aloth learn similar spells - but Aloth can learn all spells, and at start of combat, he is "ready to rumble", may buff himself and cast something powerful almost immediately, whereas the Cipher needs to launch attacks with ordinary weapons to build up focus first, before higher level powers can be accessed. The minimum focus threshold at start of combat is only suitable for using e.g. level 1 powers once. And as you can learn only a very few cipher powers during level up, you need to specialize in a few powers that may still make a difference even if Aloth typically is the who turns the tide of combat early. The Cipher contributing something later during combat then isn't as satisfying anymore. Restricting Aloth to damage spells isn't satisfying either, because he is more valuable as a disabler. Hiravias, on the other hand, knows an interesting mix of spells including party support. More options!

All very true. I'll probably experiment with Hiravias once he joins my party just to see how it fits for a little while. I also just realized during this - because this:

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

at start of combat, he is 'ready to rumble'...whereas the Cipher needs to launch attacks with ordinary weapons to build up focus first

is a good point - that I could potentially let my Cipher and Aloth learn only a few similar spells, but only the ones that I think are very important (i.e. I'm a big fan of prone), so when I've used up some of Aloth's per rest spells or just want to conserve his uses, I have my Cipher to fall back on. And if I only do two or three of those, I can vary the rest to make them both useful in other ways.

[psychotron666]

I'm doing a cipher run right now so I can give a little insight.

I'd go with crowd control over dps, as I found wizards can pull off better mass damage to enemies and you're best off using your wizard for that, unless you're doing a solo run.

I started with a hunting bow and switched to a pistol a little ways in. I'm torn on what's better. You hit more often with a bow, but many times can barely break through damage resistance. A gun is way slower (like I can shoot a bow probably 4 times or more in the time it takes to shoot and reload a pistol), but usually I only need to shoot once and it'll bring my focus from 15 to like 40 in a single hit.

The key here i think is if you have a low dex and can't hit much, then a gun might not be a good idea because if you miss you're waiting a good 10, 15 seconds to reload and try again. Guns are great though because with one gunshot and one magic missile from aloth and I can wipe out the wizard or priest at the start of the fight, stopping them from buffing or debuffing or healing.

And with a cipher hitting enemies with basic attacks is huge. If you can't hit anything, you'll never be able to use your powers. So id recommend upping dex a bit.

If you're in a team ciphers are better for crowd control. I found many times where I'm using mental binding to paralyze the big bad enemy and then getting all my team to dog pile on the big guy and destroying him, or I'm using it on the big guy to keep him out of the fight while I take out the minions.

The area damage powers for the cipher I found aren't nearly as powerful as the wizard or even druid counter parts.
As for keeping aloth and replacing him with the druid. Up to you. Druids have more damaging area spells and can use them more often, but I find wizards to be more versatile (changing grimoires, or changing out spells for specific encounters, having that one spell that will stop a boss in his tracks. I guess druids are better for regular enemies and wizards are better for bosses ), and found they change the course of the battle slightly more than a druid does.

Or you know, you could also take them both. A wizard druid and cipher are a good mix of powerful guys and you'd only need a fighter or paladin and a couple half tanks like a priest and a monk or something to make a well rounded team who can end fights quick.

[ColeTrain1034]

Originally posted by psychotron666:

I started with a hunting bow and switched to a pistol a little ways in. I'm torn on what's better. You hit more often with a bow, but many times can barely break through damage resistance. A gun is way slower (like I can shoot a bow probably 4 times or more in the time it takes to shoot and reload a pistol), but usually I only need to shoot once and it'll bring my focus from 15 to like 40 in a single hit.

The key here i think is if you have a low dex and can't hit much, then a gun might not be a good idea because if you miss you're waiting a good 10, 15 seconds to reload and try again. Guns are great though because with one gunshot and one magic missile from aloth and I can wipe out the wizard or priest at the start of the fight, stopping them from buffing or debuffing or healing.

And with a cipher hitting enemies with basic attacks is huge. If you can't hit anything, you'll never be able to use your powers. So id recommend upping dex a bit.

So far, the extra boosts from equipment and consumables have been a great help with attack speed. And I'm duel-wielding Fast weapons with the "Accurate" trait. So when I hit I'm hitting HARD, because my Accuracy is pretty great for my level. I knew coming into it that my Dexterity was lower than ideal (I am very familiar with the mechanics after all, just not Ciphers), but I wanted to give it a shot so I could have a little extra Perception and Might. I'm probably going to respec my Resolve anyway, so when I do that I'll reanalyze if the speed boosts are not working well enough anymore, and raise Dexterity if need be.

Originally posted by psychotron666:

Or you know, you could also take them both. A wizard druid and cipher are a good mix of powerful guys and you'd only need a fighter or paladin and a couple half tanks like a priest and a monk or something to make a well rounded team who can end fights quick.

Ya know, I thought about doing that too. But I absolutely need Eder, Pallegina, and Durance. So that only leaves me with substituting Aloth or Kana, and I just love Kana so much. Haha. Also, I guess I don't have to solidify party composition right now, or ever for that matter. I'll experiment with my favorite combos with the Cipher and see what works the best for me. It might also be fun to change it up often and see how many strategies I can come up with.