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I have a lot of 1v1 experience and I agree with most of ARGorilla's points.
Of course you do, you found something you have difficulty beating.
At this point, that's usually because the game is imbalanced or I haven't figured it out yet. With Lucien I HAVE figured out the playstyle and Lucien is still an uphill battle.
I'm not looking at balancing Lucien because I'm salty, if that were the case I would just run around calling nerfs everytime I lost to someone. I don't think Scarlet or Hattori needs nerfs, and I've lost plenty of games to PotsNPans and Skroyan. Hell, I lost like 5 games in a row to Tandori on Gnash and Gnash is still bottom tier in my opinion.
This isn't the first time that I've argued that Lucien has some balance issues, I think he's always been broken, I just toned down my volume levels after signatures were announced. Signatures have arrived, and they've had little effect on Lucien's ability to win games.
You made this thread without ever proposing your own original opinions OnTilt. Since you made it, you've come in here and counter-argued everyone into the ground with out actually considering the idea that other people may have valid opinions. I'd ask you to look at this objectively instead of carrying a flag for a character you really enjoy. This is a discussion of game balance, not a personal crusade. Next time I'd ask you to present some logical arguments and treat this like a dialogue instead of just shouting everyone down when they respond to your question.
I think the signatures of Ada and Cassidy had a HUGE impact on our last matches, and not that little. It's not that difficult to stop the main approaching tool that Lucien has (katars down-air heavy) specially when you are using Cassidy. And Ada can do that as well with some of her new moves. I can tell that Vraxx and Scarlet are no exception too.
For me he is far for being broken, except the guns. The defense tools against air games are there. But the guns are the guns, if we are looking for an issue I don't really think is the character.
No, I didn't start this thread with my own opinions because I didn't have any at the time. It was an inquiry as to what the community thought made Lucien out of balance. Since people have offered to me their reasons, I have offered my rebuttal. I have presented logical arguments, several times up till now.I have even conceded that his signatures might be too fast, I honestly don't have a way to test that other than how people says it 'feels'.
You say you've toned down your call for Lucien nerfs up until this point because you were waiting on the new signatures which are here now. We only have new signatures for four characters though. If this is really why you were biting your toungue shouldn't you at least wait until Lucien has his?
Now if you want to know why I offered you a response with the amount of snark in that I did I'll explain. Everything that I'm about to say is of a circumstantial nature so I've not brought it up until now, however these are the chain of events as I and a few I've talked to have seen them.
Pre 1.7
---------------------
Hattori is 80% of the playerbase. Top ranked players all insist she's fine and that its a learn to play issue. I don't know what your opinion at the time was but I can't seem to find a video on your channel where you express the need for nerfs.
Post 1.7
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You change your main from Hattori to Cassidy / Ada.
I thought you said you didn't play Hattori because she was top tier, you just liked speedy characters . . .
50% of top 50 is a combination of Scarlet, Ada, and Cassidy. Despite the representation (which does have bearing in issues like this) Lucien is felt to be OP, despite there being maybe five players that main him.
All this coming almost immediately after the grand tourny is won by a Lucien player. (Who was also the one who directly took you out of the running)
I'm not saying that you are the type of person who would get salty and run around asking for nerfs based solely on that. But you don't think there is a chance that your own biased has had a part here?
Also, I'll freely admit my biased. I only play Lucien afterall. However my opinion doesn't have the reach to affect how the rest of the players and to some extent even the Devs view the balance of the game.
I agree Kruetz.
Somewhere in all my post that didn't have any original opinions or logical arguments, I believe I said that we would be better off nerfing guns and seeing where that brought us with Lucien after. That would also be a nerf to Ada and Cassidy though so I'm sure there are a miriad of more logical reasons why that's not a good idea.
Yes, I was definitely trying to say down-air light attacks, haha.
Well, all the weapons were tuned down in the last patches and the guns were the only one (almost) untouched. And we know how high is it's damage at the moment. So I guess it needs tweaks on some moves to get in the same level of the other weapons.
To be fair I probably am biased.
Blades are the weapon I've spent the least amount of time using and the blades characters have always been my least favorite. I just don't care for the play style.
I'd be happy to play Lucien for the next week or two and see if my opinions change after being on the other side of the match up. Manswer Just took the #2 spot from me so I'm gonna need to do some laddering again anyway.
I know Raidhyn says a character being "easy" to play has no bearing on high tier play... but there is a point where when you just select a character that in and of itself makes your opponent have to work harder to win... that's the point that I think ease of play vs difficulty comes into play even at higher skill levels.
When the unfortunate salt moment happened a while ago people told me I just needed to learn to space and things like that. My response was always "you have to space PERFECTLY" in order to beat it. The beginning of the game i was doing just that... eventually my spacing broke down and I ended up being 4 stocked on the second game of the match.
The sad part is I hardly ever play lucien... but 95% of the time I do play him I come away with a win. This could be related to my knowledge of the Katars from playing Sentinel back before lucien came out (for obvious reasons post lucien integration i stopped playing him).
I like to quantify it by asking the following
How many mistakes did I make?
How many mistakes did my opponent make?
These were the questions I was asking when I played MiSfit last night, and even though he outplayed me in every match I won 90% of them. Some of them with two stocks. I was making way more mistakes but could just shrug it off and carry on towards victory.
The problems most sited for Lucien are as follow.
- Guns. The community pretty much has a consensus that guns are too good. While this is a problem shared by all gun legends, it contributes to Lucien's current state. I think we are all hoping that some changes will be made in this regard in tomorrow's patch.
-Katars. Lucien's stats really compliment the katars. I however don't see this as a problem per se, but as Lucien's strong point. Lets not forget that legends are supposed to be good at something.
-Signatures. I'm still not convinced that Lucien's signatures are too fast. The range on the gun neutral might be too good, but that move has one of the longer recovery times of many signatures should it miss. I can agree that the katar tilt-heavy and down-heavy probably have too much force. Either way, this whole topic will be moot once Lucien gets his custom signatures.
-Armor. A lot of people feel that Lucien is too durable. It seems to me that the intention was that his armor would be offset by his low force, rather than low speed. Normally, I would say that this would work fine. The problem is in that Lucien's low force compliments his katar game, making it as much of a perk as a weak point. So question time - If you were to remove armor from Lucien, how much would you remove and where would you put the stat points?
In summary I can agree that there is a lot at work making Lucien very good. Do I think it is so much of a boost that it warrants his own Tier or to label him as OP? For me the answer is still no.
but seriously, I think this was more mob-mentality than anything else. We could over analyse every legend and item if we really want to :P
Now then... who hits who when you're right on top of eachother?? grrrrrrr -_-
This is really what I felt was going on and part of why I made my argument with so much, shall we say, passion?
I fully respect both Raidhyn and Ruin as skilled and well informed players. I just didn't want the entire community to come to a consensus based on only their opinions with no counter argument being made.