So, what makes Lucien OP?

[OnTilt ☦]

I've been hearing it, haven't really heard why.

[ComptonEMT TTV]

there are a few things i do want to note for this conversation.

on the katar front with lucien. It's a very short range rushdown weapons. Force and armor effect the distance traveled when hit and how quickly you can recover and do another move after being hit. So think of it this way. Luciens 3 attack doesn't push you away as much. When you hit him you don't push him away as much. So on either end of the ball... he's closer to you than a lot of other legends would be. The attack speed means that he can attack super quick after his attack with a weapon that naturally can do that with 3 points in the dex stat. Add in the ability to run and catch up to you and that little bit of distance makes up quite a bit when it comes to the katars specifically. What other katar char has that type of synergy in the stat to katar idea?

A point of note on gun chars. he's the only gun char that has more than 3 armor. Part of the reason guns aren't noticed as much on other legends is because they are in fact easier to knock out than lucien. In a straight up TAir/DAir fight with cassidy or vraxx lucien should lose and generally does lose. That's typically when a lucien char will switch to the katars though and "underspace" the detached hitboxes of the guns (which is relatively easy if you know what you're doing). This gives lucien the upper hand in fights vs other guns legends.

Lastly... lucien, while having the 3 attack, has 2 of the weapons that rack up damage real quick. he doesn't have issues putting damage on. It's the finishing thats a bit harder. For this he has his signatures... quite possibly 2 of the best in the game. Currently he also has the plain heavies for both weapons. The standard heavies for guns and katars might be the quickest and best plain heavies in the game as well.

kk... i added a bit of insight. continue with the discussion

[Raidhyn]

I think the problem with this discussion is that you're asking if Lucien is OP. The question should be "Is he imbalanced?"

In the current state of the game, all other characters with high armor statistics are balanced out with low speed. This is because Brawlhalla is largely about positioning. You need to be able to get into position to put down damage. So characters like Roland and Nai who are on the slow side, have high armor to compensate for their inability to avoid and deal damage as consistently as the faster characters. This is a sensible tradeoff because they can just retaliate when they receive damage.

Lucien doesn't have this problem. He can get into or out of position as easily as the speedy characters who are balanced out by having low armor.

Right now, the force vs. damage values are incredibly negligible on Lucien's weapon set. Guns have a huge amount of damage. Blades have a stupid amount of force and there's no noticeable delay to Katar's heavy moves or Lucien's signatures. His low strength (force) stat has almost no impact on his ability to deal damage or knock out his opponent.

On top of that, if you assume a battle of attrition between him and every other character where each character is getting hit into a combo an equal number of times, Lucien will always come out on top.

All of this has been said already, I just felt like getting on the record.

[ArcaniteJedi]

Well said man. I basically wanted to say the same thing. Lucien is not OP in the traditional sense, like say hattori in patch 1.6. Like Ruin said, Its just the combination of his stats(specifically his high armor), the guns doing huge damage in little time and the down air's huge hitbox, Katars excellent heavies, all these individual elements put together that make him appear more powerful than other legends.

But we also have to keep in mind while these are all true, Lucien needs a highly skilled player to truly shine. I only know of 5 people who can use Lucien to his full potential, and in my time in ranks I have come up against few Luciens. Out 11 games i played, 5 were ada, 3 cassidy, 2 Scarlet and only one Lucien. Why? in my opinion he is too hard to use and harder to master for most people(myself included).

The katars require precise positioning and timing, abstract form of closing in on the opponent and very low reach, meaning you have to do another move for another move to hit the other guy. Just too much work and energy is needed to use him effectively, so most people whom i've come up against who use him, just like the character or only use guns. That is why we don't see bazillion lucines running around like we did with hattori. Katar Neutral aid spam? it is in no shape or form comparable with the previous tilt air spam and its far from unmanageable.

But that is just my two cents and i could be 100% percent wrong and Lucien could simply be in and of it self OP.

[Raidhyn]

引用自 Jö ArcaniteJedi：

But we also have to keep in mind while these are all true, Lucien needs a highly skilled player to truly shine. I only know of 5 people who can use Lucien to his full potential, and in my time in ranks I have come up against few Luciens. Out 11 games i played, 5 were ada, 3 cassidy, 2 Scarlet and only one Lucien. Why? in my opinion he is too hard to use and harder to master for most people(myself included).

While this may be true. I don't think that you can balance a competitive game around a character being 'difficult.' Highly skilled players can always get around executional difficulties, and in a lot of cases, they're more attracted to it. Difficulty to execute should never be part of the equation because with enough practice nothing is that hard to do.

[KingKondom]

finishing can definitely be a pain. Rarely do i make it with a strong KO using lucien in ranked (gettin whipped up today >:| )

I don't know if there's anything to 'deadzones' for each legend.. but i often find myself ontop (on the same space) of somebody with lucien.. punching or slicing away to no effect while it seems any or no weapon will hit from them. Other legends dont feel so 'pinpoint' to me

[Kreutz]

Well, I guess I have to say something about this because this is the character that I had most fun in the game for so long time.

I think we are trying to prove that he has a lot of advantages against every character, pointing only his strong points and so. BUT... Where are the suggestions of the balance? We are responsable for how fun or not the characters will be when the game is out of beta.

I'd like to make some points here of what everyone should think about.

1) One of the things that was most discussed here was his armor. Ok, he has a high amount of armor. But what should we do about that? Switch some of his defense to more attack speed than it has already? Even more attack for easier KOs and insane damage for the guns? More speed for huge positioning advantage? Also, bringing down his movespeed is just like we are saying "all the katar users must be slow". We don't want characters with different specialities?

2) Signatures. No, he doesn't have the best signatures at the moment. The katar heavies are his true weapons. But you know what? It will change in no time. I'm just gonna use the Vraxx example now. His powerlance signatures are better than it was before? Well, I don't really think so. Compton may agree to that. I don't say those signatures should stay like that forever, but we saw the impact of the changes comparing to the previous ones. The problem we have with the katars now can be solved with new signatures and bringing down to balance, and why not?

3) Guns. This weapons deserves some balance. The damage output is just too high. But when we have this balance, Lucien will be pretty much balanced already. Also, I just think we have to take care about all the points we are suggesting to be balanced, so we not bring down the whole character to the bottom of the pit.

4) Katars. While being one of his strongest weapons on Lucien, known for it's combos, we may not forget that we have characters that can bring him down without that much effort. Ada or Cassidy anyone? I have played Raidhyn some days ago, we had five games. 1-1 when I faced his Ada, and 2-1 for his Cassidy. I wasn't feeling I had the upper hand because of the character, and always have to put a big effort to win some of those matches. The new signatures are already a big deal against him. Scarlet is the same stuff, I can't rushdown her without be countered by her anti-air attacks. Oh yeah, we have many of those moves by now and more will come. And we must remember, approaching by the air is the main approach for this character when using the katars.

[Raidhyn]

引用自 Jö Kreutzburg：

. Also, I just think we have to take care about all the points we are suggesting to be balanced, so we not bring down the whole character to the bottom of the pit.

Kreutz I love your brain.

I think that if they looked at the strength stat it might help bring Lucien in balance. I've seen him knock out characters at orange health because they caught by a guns signature or a blades heavy attack.

If we think about Hattori vs. Lucien for example, think of how much damage Hattori has to put down in order to get a knock out. If the Hattori player makes 50 good decisions and Lucien makes 50 good decisions, Lucien will always win the match. If the Lucien makes 5 bad decisions and the Hattori layer makes 5 bad decisions, the Hattori player will always lose.

I'm not sure what the best way is to balnce Lucien, but I'm not convinced he doesn't have a leg up on everyone else, despite having to deal with new signatures.

[OnTilt ☦]

引用自 Raidhyn：

引用自 Jö ArcaniteJedi：

But we also have to keep in mind while these are all true, Lucien needs a highly skilled player to truly shine. I only know of 5 people who can use Lucien to his full potential, and in my time in ranks I have come up against few Luciens. Out 11 games i played, 5 were ada, 3 cassidy, 2 Scarlet and only one Lucien. Why? in my opinion he is too hard to use and harder to master for most people(myself included).

While this may be true. I don't think that you can balance a competitive game around a character being 'difficult.' Highly skilled players can always get around executional difficulties, and in a lot of cases, they're more attracted to it. Difficulty to execute should never be part of the equation because with enough practice nothing is that hard to do.

While I agree with your point here Raidhyn, something is up if Ada, Cassidy, and Scarlet are more predominant despite the argument that Lucien is better.

Also. I still disagree completely with the argument that having five armor is too much for Lucien. His armor isn't balanced by having a low speed because it is balanced by him having very low force. Like I said before, hit-for-hit Lucien comes off worse against any other legend except for Vraxx, Hattori, and Cassidy (with whom he is tied). This also directly relates to what it takes to knock him out of the arena. If Bodvar were to whack at Cassidy then whack at Lucien, yes, he would knock Cassidy out first. But we don't have a game mode where we try to survive Bodvar's attacks. Instead we have a 1v1 queue in which, head to head, Lucien loses in this scenario to almost all of the other legends.

Now, you argue that his low force doesn't matter because guns do too much damage and Katars have too much force. I think we can agree that specific moves for the guns do too much damage. Again, I (and from what I hear a fair amount of others) feel that guns need to be tuned better. As for katars having too much force, I don't know. I'll do some test to compare them to other weapons taking force differences into account.

I think what everyone's argument really boils down to here is that:
-Guns are OP.
-Katars are OP (especially with Lucien who synergizes with them too well.)

[Kreutz]

引用自 Raidhyn：

I think that if they looked at the strength stat it might help bring Lucien in balance. I've seen him knock out characters at orange health because they caught by a guns signature or a blades heavy attack.

I'm not sure this would be correct way to balance the katars. How Hattori would be after that? Yes we can tune down a bit of the force of the weapon itself, but still won't matter much when we have new signatures on him. And we must not forget about the other katars users since this change may hurt them too.

引用自 Raidhyn：

If we think about Hattori vs. Lucien for example, think of how much damage Hattori has to put down in order to get a knock out. If the Hattori player makes 50 good decisions and Lucien makes 50 good decisions, Lucien will always win the match. If the Lucien makes 5 bad decisions and the Hattori layer makes 5 bad decisions, the Hattori player will always lose.

I'm still convinced Hattori has very good spacing game, specially when using the spear, even against Lucien. Using the katars against this may be painful sometimes, as I had experienced against Skroyan. The guns have more advantage in these situations though, but it's just this weapon. And as I said before, tuning down a bit the damage of the guns will bring the characters closer and closer about their damage/KO potential.

引用自 Raidhyn：

I'm not sure what the best way is to balance Lucien, but I'm not convinced he doesn't have a leg up on everyone else, despite having to deal with new signatures.

And we will have more and more signatures coming out soon. Nai will have anti-air moves, and I'll not be surprised that almost everyone will have that in the end too.

[OnTilt ☦]

I think the best thing to do from a game developement standpoint would be to nerf guns damage and see where that brings us.

[Raidhyn]

Honestly I think Anti-Airs are a great addition to the game. Every character should have one. Lucien already has one on his blades moveset (down heavy) even if it's not that good.

Idk. We'll see what they update in the next patch.

[Mr. Pickles]

Probably not the place to throw this, but I have figured it out after a while in the training room and figured it would be worth sharing here.

Katars seem to excel in combat when you can keep your opponent on a diagonal relation to yourself, since they have the most mobility and damage along those axis. However, if you can stay directly above them (and to a slightly lesser extent directly below them), they lose most if not all capability to fight back. It would still require precise positioning and timing mind you, but it's a decent option while you're there.

*EDIT*...in retrospect it would make the hammer's vertical air moves a direct counter to the katar kit...

[KingKondom]

Im not opposed to dropping gun dmg, but honestly if i'm draining you with multible weak combo shots, 1 or 2 more volleys probably wont be an issue.. for those guys who I can barely touch.. I will be purchacing a shock-resistant titanium controller immediately following this post.

I just got out of a few ranked matches (always Lucien).. 3 against the same Gentleman.

--1st match WIN vs Hattori (i think)--
accused me of "spamming the undodgeable move" after my "GG". I replied "not op" like always to lucien QQ bc i can solve their problems -_-

--2nd match LOSE vs LUCIEN-- (he picked Lucien after calling op)
He said something along the lines of "i told you so"... i said "still not op"... some comment returned and said he'd take me all night (nobody else on 1v1).. I still said not op again i believe

(LUCIEN vs LUCIEN proved his point of LUCIEN being OP wtf???)

--3rd match **WIN** vs LUCIEN
"Gentleman ***** has left.." before I could say lols.. i mean GG

DEVS: I would totally pay for some perk to force oppenents to stay in chat for like 5-10 seconds after the match hahaha >:D

Same thing I told this Joker.. I play Lucien non stop, I think I'm decent.. people complain enough.. but I play against plenty of others who bounce crap off me like a pinball machine and can deny almost every move I make regardless of weapon.. but those people dont seem to use Lucien...

Honestly I feel like this level of nit-picking is a bit unneccessary when we dont even have the full cast and move sets. .. even so, it's clearly a debatable balance.

I'll put my money on skill being the biggest factor, and even with any type of nerf/balance... the people winning with Lucien, will continue to win with Lucien :D

Go Lucien!!

**edit** really not sure what the "undodgeable move" is

[Reeko]

OnTilt, you play Lucien don't you? You sound just like my training partner whenever I tell him Lucien is imba right now.

Katars are not OP on their own and neither are guns, look at queen Nai, sentinel, and Thatch. Nai's katars are terribad. Her dex is too low to chain neutral/tilt airs like lucien can and the combination of long range poke weapon/short range rushdown just doesn't work well at all on people with low recovery. Lucien can move all over the air and map by using actual attacks because his recovery is so low, couple that with a defense that lets him take many more hits than cassidy/ada, and you've got a killer combination. Sentinel's Katar's are NOTICEABLY worse than Lucien.

On Lucien, why not just spam light-tilt instead of running, right?

He can reposition himself so well thanks to his Dex and Speed and is able to punish things other characters cant punish as easily. Lucian can literally light-tilt with katars go right underneath Nai cobra special and still have time to punish her, most characters can't do that consistently.

Gun specials/normals on him come out extremely fast and chain together very smoothly. Like yeah Ada and Cassidy have those normals and they chain together nicely too, but they don't have 7 speed to follow up on literally any hit like Lucien can, or the defense to take a hit or two during your rush down and still be OK, 2 points of defense is HUGE that's like a 40% increase in comparison to Ada and Cassidy.

I think Lucien requires more skill to play at a level where you can consider him imbalanced, as opposed to Scarlet where all you need is one or two reads to get kill on any of the cast, and she uses a Rocket Lance. So that probably explains why you see more of her. I think Scarlet is dumb too, but her weaknesses are much more glaring than Lucien. I tend to see characters that use at least one big weapon the most online, Gnash, Bodvar, Ada, Cassidy, Hattori. Lucien is unique in that his range is short across the board, I think that turns a lot of people off of him.

Lag also contributes to him seeming OP, it's like Hattori, when there's lag, you want the fastest character so that when things teleport on top of you, you can react and not get beaten out. Lucien is one of the most frustrating characters to play in lag because his moves are nigh unbeatable in terms of trading and spacing.

Comparing Lucien to Ada, Vraxx, and Cassidy isn't very relevant. Vraxx specials are garbage right now, and low health. Every gun wielder except the legend, Thatch, has looooow health to offset their extreme mobility/comboability. Lucien does not. He can make mistakes and not die for it, having high health promotes spamming attacks and taking big risks, because even if you make a mistake, you can just go right back into doing it.

Cassidy's dex may be very high but she's gimped in everything else.

IMO Ada is kind of in the talk for being op as well, but once again, her gun specials aren't as fast as lucien's and the base specials. IMO She definitely is the best spear wielder in the game, and she's up there in terms of gun users, but her defense is a huge weakness.

I think they just need to drop one point from lucien's defense and put it into attack and people would fall out of his chains a lot more easily and he wouldn't be able to spam stuff endlessly without fear of reprimendation

TL;DR it's not that katars and guns are OP, they are overly strong with the particular stat combination Lucien possesses, in conjunction with how the specials work on him, in conjunction with their complementary playstyles, in conjunction with lag in almost every game.

[OnTilt ☦]

Once again someone is taking Lucien's strong points and simply saying "This is what Lucien does well - thus he is OP"

Guns are in fact OP. They have too good of zoning potential and they do too much damage. Guns have repeatedly been listed as a contributing factor here. Yes, guns do add to Lucien's arsenal. However Lucien's gun game is only superior to Thatch's. Lucien's speed doesn't help as much here as you think for follow up. There is only a certain window of damage done to your opponent that Lucien's speed will be the difference of him being able to follow up with guns. Before that window Ada, Cassidy, and Vraxx can as well. After that window they get knocked too far away for anyone to.

I'm not going into the armor thing again. If you not getting what I'm saying based on the posts I made earlier about armor then you just aren't going to get it. Maybe I'll make a spreadsheet later for the people with low reading comprehension.

Also, you are really listing lag now as for why Lucien is OP? Guys, I think we need to nerf lag. . .

It most certainly is relevant to compare Lucien to other legends when talking balance. What isn't relevant is looking at Lucien in a vacuum. Also, Thatch also has only 3 armor.

How is Cassidy 'gimped' in everything other than Dex? She has 5 force - which is 'a lot' when we are talking about Lucien's armor or dex. She has four speed which, while low, is not that bad. The only stat she has that is actually bad is armor, but heaven forbid a gun legend has more than 3 armor, am I right?

spam stuff endlessly without fear of reprimendation

Why do people keep saying things like this? If there was literally no reprisal, no chance of being punished, then Luciens would all have a 100% win-loss and never take any damage.

ARGorilla, how much experience do you even have in the 1v1 queue?

Honestly, I think a lot of the Katar complaints stem from the fact that the other two katar legends are underpowered/unpopular. People don't know how to cope when they see katars put to good use and rather than figure out what needs done they just whine about it.