Gameplay design

[GreenHand]

Hi there,
just wanna discuss the gameplay choices in Brawhalla.
As you guys certainly saw, Brawhalla is a "smash bros" type of game.

So yeah, i enjoyed the game for a moment but these days, i'm feeling like some lack of variety.

The legends in the game got pretty much the same move.
It's the weapons (and a little bit the stats) that kinda seperates the characters for the moves.

But is that really a good choice of gameplay ?

I can imagine that they went for this weapons gameplay because :

-To seperate itself from Smash Bros

-but more importantly because of the animation:
Basically, they make the different parts on photoshop (head, arms, legs, upper body, under body) on different layers so they can animate them with the animation software Spine.

And by making the weapon system,It makes them gain a lot of time,money and effort for the animation.
After all, they're not a big studio (i think so).

For the stats, it's pretty much some changes on the variables.

The thing that kinda annoys me is that they might hit a wall on for the gameplay later.

The thing that makes characters so different and enjoyable it's the movelist but the thing is that the movelist is restricted by the weapons in Brawhalla.

We already got : the daggers, hammer, lance, sword and pistols.
4 weapons for 13 characters (with a combination of 2 weapons).

If they gonna add another weapon, how many characters will they make with it ? 3-4 ?
That would make already 16-17 characters with not much of variety and people might get tired of it.

The weapons diversity is all about the speed of it:
-Fast weapons hits fast, with less exposure but light damage and little range
-Heavy weapons hits slow, more exposure to hits but high damage and a longer range.

So already adding 1 other weapon can be difficult.

So, what would they do later on ?

For now on, you can't swith between weapons.
If you switch between weapons, they'll need to make a signatue move for each character on each move ?!
Not only that would make the initial gameplay choices kinda a waste (better make a movelist for each character in that case) but that would create less interest for the shop.

On the top of that, all characters got the same size, shape (no tall character or fat ones) because of this weapon system.

Anyway, i wanted to discuss with you guys and tell me what you think :)

[Just Pete]

They are adding new special moves for all the chracters for left/right and down ground heavy moves

[GreenHand]

Oh you mean without the weapons, right ?

[Relai]

For each heavy ground move there will be a character specific special attack for each weapon.
You can check out their dev stream, the past ones. In the last they also showed Scarlets and Vraxxs new special moves.

http://www.twitch.tv/brawlhalla/b/638043145

[GreenHand]

Oh on weapons.
So we'll be able to switch between then

I don't really see the point of making weapons as i explained.

(watching the video)

[Zulu]

Just a note: you're mathematically wrong with the number of weapon combinations there are.

There are 6 weapons, (7 with axe) and that leads to the following number of unique combinations: 5+4+3+2+1 = 15 unique combinations (before Axe), which becomes 21 unique combinations with Minotaur and his Axe. Adding one more weapon after that will allow for 28...

Each character shares the same unarmed moveset, but with weapons they have a variety of different signature moves, and are varied in speed and power, which will allow different users of the same weapons to favor different play styles.

So if Hattori attacks quickly but doesn't hit hard she is likely to favor combo attacks that allow chains to build high enough damage to go for a KO, whereas Nai hits harder and is therefore more likely to favor moves that provide better launches. They both use spears, but they use them differently.

[ComptonEMT TTV]

The total weapons currently and shown for future consist of
Katar, Sword, spear, Guns, Hammer, Lance, and Axe (coming soon).

In essence these weapons are your "characters" in a way. These are the movesets along with unarmed. So essentially think of it in these terms. when you select a legend you're selecting 2 characters/movesets and get the default unarmed movset as well. You also get modifications to the speed strength and defense inherent in these movesets.
With the changes that pete and relai mentioned you will have per weapon moveset 8 standard moves and 3 unique to round out at 11.
When combining the weapons and unarmed you have 27 standard moves and 6 unique moves across all 3 movesets.
So think of it like you're playing a fighting game where you select 2 characters that you can swap out and then also getting a default character to swap out with also that has more projectile capabilities.
Imagine when they release 3-4 more weapons after the axe. You'll have 10-11 characters if you look at them this way.






As for the different styles of weapons. Sure you have light and heavy. It does get a bit deeper than that through. here is a break down in a way

Light
Unarmed: quick movset with overlapping hitboxes and good pushback. Great for seperating you from your opponent... typically to pick up a weapon.
Katar: very quick moveset with low wind up and cool down that is great for rushing and comboing players
Sword: quick moveset with a bit more range on it.

Medium
Spear: fast moveset with quite a bit of distance qhile also having conjoining hitboxes. Great for spacing out other players.
Guns: 1 hit combos and damage dealing with good range but disjointed hitboxes. Keep your enemies away and put on lots of fast damage
Axe: unknown how it really plays right now since its not released yet but it looks to be a medium combo weapon.

Heavy/Utility
Hammer: Huge force weapon that is slow but packs a punch. Great for KOing players that aren't damaged as much.
Lance: pure zoning. Larger than normal hitboxes. Smaller Amounts of damage. Amazing at distancing out opponents to slowly whittle them away.

As you can see I broke it up into 3 sections. Each of the weapons in those sections has a different role to play. This means that each legend can play 2 or 3 possible roles.
Bodvar is great at working people down then doing a KO. Sword and hammer
Hattori is great at distancing with the spear and laying down damage with the sword.
Lucien is great at rushing people down with the katars or putting on quick fast damage with the guns.
Vraxx is a distancing machine with the guns and the lance.

It may seem like the design is lackluster and bland but once you start looking deeper to it you start to realize more and more what each character is capable of.

TL:DR?
Weapons/movesets are the characters
Legends are a combo of 2 characters + the basic character with added stat bonus'. So 3 chars in one pick.
Weapons all have their role and it's more than just "heavy" and "light".



.:EDIT:.
Also think of this when it comes to smash. Falco/Fox. Mario/Luigi. Roy/Marth. Aren't those movesets essentially the same?

[GreenHand]

Actually, zulu, they don't use all the combinations. That's why i didn't talk about the different combinations possibles but the fact the they choose 2 weapons for 13 characters.

It seems that we'll be able to switch weapons.
I don't know how much (all of them ? or specific ones ?)

So for now on, we have 2 signature moves.

Basiclly, for the example, it's the difference between a light and heavy character.
Nothing more imo.

[GreenHand]

@[HSA]ComptonEMT
As i said.
That's because of a technical choice imo as i explained.

Because of that, we get characters MUCH less interesting.

They could use that time creating a move for each character into making 1 ACTUALLY unique character like all other fighting games.

Look at Minotaur.
Why isn't he a huge,massive character like an actual minautor ?

Because of the software Spine and this weapon system.

EDIT :
"Also think of this when it comes to smash. Falco/Fox. Mario/Luigi. Roy/Marth. Aren't those movesets essentially the same?"

From what i've seen, it's already more diversified than Brawhalla with those.

You can't bring down Smash to only those characters and also, compare the smash team dev to Brawhalla team dev...it's just not the same.

EDIT 2 :
On the top of that, you can't make the weapons more interesting than the actual characters.
I feels like they ditched a lot for less. It's not worth it.

And how many weapons will they add ?
Won't it in the end like a character but it's less interesting because it's focused on the weapon and not on the actual character holding it ?
Why don't they put all that effort into making a UNIQUE character ?

[ComptonEMT TTV]

could be technical... but the devs have talked a lot about how open they want the game to be. One thing they never really liked about most fighting games is that in order to learn a new character you had to start over essentially. The shared weapons fixes that for them as learning a new character is easier if you're switching from say a hammer sword to a hammer spear combo.

That also bleeds into the question of why isn't Minotaur a huge beast. Well for one it wasn't... it was just the head of a bull on the body of a man. Secondly... having matching hurtboxes means that things are easier to balance. Call it cutting corners or whatever but in the end... it really is easier to balance. It also does have to do with the weapon system. Though i'm sure they could, if they wanted, animate around it.




As for my comment on the characters in Smash. compare it to the weapon movesets in brawlhalla. The sword is on both roland an hattori... but it functions differently based on their stats and has different signature moves. Just like Fox and falco share a very very similar moveset and have a few differences in the way that moveset plays and a few unique moves.

Also... i wasn't devolving it to just those chars... i was giving examples. Also not comparing the dev teams either. I'm making note of your "needs to be more like smash" connotations that you're putting on brawlhalla and trying to bridge the gap for you to show you that while its different there are things that if you look at them will help you enjoy the game more because it does have some of the things you are looking for.





on your edit 2. It's not about making one more special than the other. It's about complexity in simplicity. Fighting in a game that allows you multiple fighters and just using them till they're KO'd puts you at a disadvantage. Likewise Playing a Brawlhalla Legend and only using one weapon will. The uniqueness comes from the combination of the two weapons and the unarmed and how effectively you use all 33 of the moves at your disposal.

I hope we get at least 10 weapons by release. I think there could be a solid base at that point of diversity. That means you could have a ton of legends to wet your whistle with and a variety of combinations on moveset setups.

return to the top of this post on why they don't make unique characters though. Ease of transition and accessibility.

[Yokai]

Originally posted by Love You Dead:

@[HSA]ComptonEMT
As i said.
That's because of a technical choice imo as i explained.

Because of that, we get characters MUCH less interesting.

They could use that time creating a move for each character into making 1 ACTUALLY unique character like all other fighting games.

Look at Minotaur.
Why isn't he a huge,massive character like an actual minautor ?

Because of the software Spine and this weapon system.

EDIT :
"Also think of this when it comes to smash. Falco/Fox. Mario/Luigi. Roy/Marth. Aren't those movesets essentially the same?"

From what i've seen, it's already more diversified than Brawhalla with those.

You can't bring down Smash to only those characters and also, compare the smash team dev to Brawhalla team dev...it's just not the same.

EDIT 2 :
On the top of that, you can't make the weapons more interesting than the actual characters.
I feels like they ditched a lot for less. It's not worth it.

And how many weapons will they add ?
Won't it in the end like a character but it's less interesting because it's focused on the weapon and not on the actual character holding it ?
Why don't they put all that effort into making a UNIQUE character ?

Because it's easier to balance one weapon than one individual character. If Katars are too strong you can nerf Katars in whatever way you want, because Katars have only a limited set of moves. If Lucien is too strong you have to check that nerfing Lucien in one matchup didn't completely destroy him in another matchup. If his unarmed special move is too strong you'll have to change the entire character entirely. With a weapon, it's a simple as making sure numbers and hitboxes are balanced.

[Relai]

Originally posted by Love You Dead:

It seems that we'll be able to switch weapons.
I don't know how much (all of them ? or specific ones ?)

What are you talking about? Each character has 2 weapons. If you pick a weapon up with that character you will get one of those two. Weapons for the characters are final.

[GreenHand]

"it really is easier to balance. It also does have to do with the weapon system. Though i'm sure they could, if they wanted, animate around it. "

Basically, There's less stuff to deal with so it's easier to balance. True.
I doubt they really want to animate it because of all those points i've said.

"I'm making note of your "needs to be more like smash" connotations that you're putting on brawlhalla"

(Actually, i'm a Guilty Gear fan)

Yes, i would like it to be like more like the fighting games in general.
I don't care about Smash. I just said Smash because it's the same type of fighting game.
More focused on characters than on weapons.
Imo, a lot more interesting and offers more to the gameplay.

"It's not about making one more special than the other. It's about complexity in simplicity. Fighting in a game that allows you multiple fighters and just using them till they're KO'd puts you at a disadvantage."

Yeah i get their point now and i dislike it.

Not that dislike their game (i wouldn't play it otherwise) but it's such a shame making it about weapons.
It's ease of transition and accessibility but at the cost of a gameplay less interesting.

Many games these days make this kind of decision ruining the gameplay

[GreenHand]

@Relai:

Got confused between :
"They are adding new special moves for all the chracters for left/right and down ground heavy moves"
and
"In the last they also showed Scarlets and Vraxxs new special moves."

[ComptonEMT TTV]

Originally posted by Love You Dead:

"It's not about making one more special than the other. It's about complexity in simplicity. Fighting in a game that allows you multiple fighters and just using them till they're KO'd puts you at a disadvantage."

Yeah i get their point now and i dislike it.

Not that dislike their game (i wouldn't play it otherwise) but it's such a shame making it about weapons.
It's ease of transition and accessibility but at the cost of a gameplay less interesting.

Many games these days make this kind of decision ruining the gameplay

In all actuality its about the combination of weapon 1, weapon 2, and your stats.
I'm sorry you find it boring. For me though... I like that My Legend can change drastically based on the weapon he is using. It makes it more interesting for me. If someone starts rushing me and I have a hammer I can toss it away and switch to a sword, or a lance, or a spear and distance them out instead of just taking it in the face like i would if i just had a slow character unique moveset.

Trust me... play a bit more than what you have. You'll start to understand it quite a bit more. It really is complexity in simplicity. I've seen a lot of people come in talking about the same things. They either leave right then and there or continue to play and realize that it's more than what you see on the surface.

For me... it's when games become overly complex that the fun is drained. While I'm a very avid gamer and competitive person I still want to enjoy myself instead of feeling like I have to read a textbook in order to know things. I've watched too much complexity kill far more games than I have seen simplicity.

[Gollgo]

Right now, I notice a HUGE difference between characters based off there standing heavy attacks alone. I play Bödvar, his hammer move is a giant upswing. Compare that to Gnash standing hammer, were he takes a large leap to the side he is facing, or Cassidy where she throws a lasso out and pummels anything caught in it. Yes, the system looks simple but the difference in moves between characters using the same weapons is what really draws me in.