A Toast to Ghor - Balance Update Discussion

[Meeky]

Firstly, here's the full post on balance changes here: https://steamcommunity.com/games/290340/announcements/detail/1656643072565097399

Ghor

I'm definitely looking forward to the next update, but I have to admit I'm pretty surprised by the Ghor change coming. Ghor has been my favorite character for a long time, and with the coming update his playstyle is being changed completely... but for reasons I understand.

• Ghor Rework - Ghor’s Hero Power now reads and acts follows:
  Guardian - Ending his turn on a Forest makes Ghor immune to the next instance of damage (dawn Health loss from Rot still occurs).

This is definitely a sad time for Ghor, but I can understand the changes. I've said before that Ghor is the most powerful spellcaster, and in my guide I treated him as such. Given the nature of his hero power, it always was going to be tough to balance his previous special ability.

Now, however, not only has Ghor's hero power changed, but his entire playstyle has change. It's a drastic shift in his role. He will not play the same way. I'll have to rework my guide to suit him, and I'll have to play him in his new role now, but he's definitely going to be filling more of a warrior's role now with a specialty in Not Dying. This is VERY different from his previous role of Spell-Slinging Turret.

Overall, though, I have to admit that the change makes sense. I may not be super happy with it, but it's entirely seemly for the health of the game to change Ghor's passive given how powerful it was. Before, he was definitely what I'd call the most powerful spellcaster. Now... Well, his power should bring him in line with the other warrior-types.

Sylas

I actually REALLY like this change. Sylas was powerful before, and it was all too easy to simply attack the King and win with your automatic Traitor status. Now, however, you need to build up Bounty before that fight. It makes terrific sense balance-wise.

See, Sylas is, at present, probably the best Kingslayer period. However, with this change there's more risk to his hero power, as before he could (as said) simply go for the King and in 2 turns have Traitor status and +3 swords. This means that if he wants the full strength of his hero power, he needs to expose himself to retaliation from other players. There's more likelihood of countering his ability in other words.

Twiss

Some minor stat changes to make her less invincible when on the run and to increase her ability to slap someone silly in a brawl. Yeah, that seems fine.

Starting Gold Changes

I agree with all of these, especially the Elyssia one. She was too strong.

Trickeries

I actually love the increased presence of Wandering Circus. Beheaded's change is more useful overall, but I feel like there should be an increase in Bribery count to compensate for its change.

Spells

Glamour change just makes sense.

Moonbite makes sense.

Spirit Seeds buff makes sense in light of Ghor's super changed power. I will miss blasting the world with your raw spellpower, my tubby boy.

Items

Whoa! The poison cards are actually awesome now! Snake Venom and Poisoned Dagger make me so happy.

All the changes here are smart changes, though one made me pause: Bubble Tea. See, Bubble Tea's overall usefulness has increased, but its niche utility has been diminished. You could previously, for instance, use Bubble Tea when at 0 prestige to play 2 cards that cost 1 prestige. Now you can't. Still, overall it's more useful and I like it more.

Amulets

Most of these amulets make me happy. The only exception is Dig. That's a weird change.

Besides Dig, though, everything that needed a buff got a buff, and none of those buffs seem overboard. And Listener actually gives something, even if it's a meta something!

Rings

Spinel didn't need a buff. Rainbow Quartz did. I think that's what I'll start with.

The Rat Clan and Wolf Clan got some MUCH needed changes. I'm happy about that, and I look forward to using all those shiny new rings. Gimme!

The Bear Clan ring changes are... Well, here's my honest take: the Bears don't really need more explode pool. They're already the Clan with the highest spirit values. It's a nice bonus, but I'm not sure I adore it.

Overall Impression

LOTS of changes that I love, a few that I'm a bit confused by, and one change (Ghor's) that makes me really sad. Poor Ghor. Will you ever hold the lofty throne of spellcasting lord again? Your reign of terror has ended, but now I get to try and invent new strategies for using you... Goodnight, sweet prince.

I look forward to seeing what comes next, but I will be in mourning for some time, I think.

[Meeky]

One more comment on Ghor:

As much as his change distresses me personally, I think this change is good for two reasons:

1) It sets precedence for future changes of this sort.

2) It ALSO makes the game easier to balance when considering the creation of new map modes and game modes.

For example, let's say that League of Geeks wants to make a 2v2 mode. Well, Ghor being so powerful of a spellcaster meant that it'd be a no-brainer to team him with a powerful Fighter, so whoever did that would have an advantage over the other team. It also meant that if League of Geeks wanted a long and narrow board for team modes they'd be instantly faced with the issue of Ghor's infinite range.

It will be easier to balance the game for new map modes and game modes with this change, and that means more possibilities and more opportunities for cool DLCs and expansions. I look forward to that.

(But you bet your arse I'm gonna play Ghor to death before he loses his awesome place of power.)

Also, one thing that concerns me? Ghor's special power is that of a warrior type. But his stats are those of a weaker spellcaster. What, exactly, is his role meant to be now? Is he expected to build up his Fight and to breach the palace with his raw toughness, hoping to use his special ability like a diminished Squire? (Stack swords > end turn on forest > Hot Rot Wine into palace next turn?) He certainly isn't nearly so powerful a mage as he was before, and he'll easily be outfought by most characters. So... How do you use him?

My gut tells me to take advantage of the new Discipline amulet for use in attacking the King and/or breaching the palace, and to use Jade or Taaffeite depending on the other players. But... Hm.

[Doesn't Learn From Mistakes]

"Hot Rot Wine into palace next turn?"

Hot rot wine will damage you, so it will remove his shield. Strategist will work.

[Wyld kin]

Concerning Ghor power's rework i have an idea,
currently the rework make his power would be a lot combat oriented (even if it's more deffencive than agressive) wich make it feel more wolfish than bear like, considering bears are the spellcasters, on top of that, his combat prowess is quite lackluster in comparison. so what about making it so:

Spirit Guardian - Ending his turn on a Forest makes Ghor immune to the next instance of damage (dawn Health loss from Rot still occurs), the damage he would have taken while in this state is instead converted to magic point.
so if someone play a damage spell like for exemple moon bite while his power is active instead of taking 1-2 damage, it deactivate his power and grant him 1-2 magic. if someone attack him, same thing, all the damage that couldn't be bloqued by shields is nullified and transmogrified into magic for him. it would still make him more of a spellcaster than say, river who have the same base wyld stat, just not as reliable or powerfull a caster as he once was, in exchange for being more durable.

what do you think ?

[Tei]

I wouldn't really say Ghor's new power is meant for a warrior. Not taking damage is equally important to everybody. It's not like Sana wouldn't want to negate damage just because she has 2 fight. It's really good that LoG is taking away a hero power that easily allowed and encouraged mindless card spam. Plus, the new power encourages players to actually do something. To really get value from that power you'd want to intentionally do things that draw attention and demand responses. Arguably more interesting for all 4 players than Ghor just standing around playing his whole hand for free.

I'm not excited for the ring changes. Mostly, LoG just double things or added seemingly random buffs like explode pool. It comes off as uninspired and not well thoughtout. I'd even call 1 or 2 of them just bad decisions. Amethyst is already a very strong ring, and I'd argue it's the best ring in the game. It needed a nerf if anything. Rainbow quartz giving both gold and magic is just too much for literally no efffort or chance of failure. It's nice that I'll maybe see more ring variety, but I can't really say with much confidence that balance will be better.

I do love that glamour and wandering circus will both be common. They're both good cards without necessarily immediately screwing someone over. They reward people for paying attention and reading the game well. The fact that they're so common will also make people think twice before just burning cards. It's a change that will universally promote skill and thought.

[Daddy Firestorm]

I frequently play Sylas, I love him.
And yes, he needed that nerf!

Also glad they made Ghor less of a glass cannon troll now, he's always felt like either too weak or too strong (depending on the board). Glad he might finally fit in.

Evade getting nerfed. BEST. NERF. EVER! Plus, in the process, scout's getting more powerfull! It's a win-win!

[Meeky]

Evade getting nerfed. BEST. NERF. EVER! Plus, in the process, scout's getting more powerfull! It's a win-win!

Agreed, here. But what's interesting is there's actually counter-play for Wyld's Warning now.

Let's say you've been hit with Wyld's Warning because you're on the Palace. You KNOW Jerk #1 is going to attack you and chase you off the palace. However, you also know it's not Jerk #1's turn. You can play Divination on Jerk #1 so that their divination cancels out Wyld's Warning.

So, not only does this change make Evade less powerful, but it gives you a tool to counter one of the cheapest (magic-wise) means of getting someone off the palace in the game.

Overall, an amazing decision.

I do love that glamour and wandering circus will both be common. They're both good cards without necessarily immediately screwing someone over. They reward people for paying attention and reading the game well. The fact that they're so common will also make people think twice before just burning cards. It's a change that will universally promote skill and thought.

Agreed.

I'm not excited for the ring changes. Mostly, LoG just double things or added seemingly random buffs like explode pool. It comes off as uninspired and not well thoughtout. I'd even call 1 or 2 of them just bad decisions. Amethyst is already a very strong ring, and I'd argue it's the best ring in the game. It needed a nerf if anything. Rainbow quartz giving both gold and magic is just too much for literally no efffort or chance of failure. It's nice that I'll maybe see more ring variety, but I can't really say with much confidence that balance will be better.

I think it's going to increase the variety of strategies and builds used in games. Doubling things numerically may seem boring, but sometimes all you need is a numerical tweak to make something work. And if it unbalances things in the end, they can still reverse the offending balance tweak.

You are right on Amethyst, though I feel that Rainbow Quartz still won't be a first pick.

Spirit Guardian - Ending his turn on a Forest makes Ghor immune to the next instance of damage (dawn Health loss from Rot still occurs), the damage he would have taken while in this state is instead converted to magic point.

That... is interesting. I guess it depends on how strong his current ability turns out to be.

I wouldn't really say Ghor's new power is meant for a warrior. Not taking damage is equally important to everybody. It's not like Sana wouldn't want to negate damage just because she has 2 fight. It's really good that LoG is taking away a hero power that easily allowed and encouraged mindless card spam. Plus, the new power encourages players to actually do something. To really get value from that power you'd want to intentionally do things that draw attention and demand responses. Arguably more interesting for all 4 players than Ghor just standing around playing his whole hand for free.

Perhaps, but Ghor's stat lineup just doesn't make him that great at spells or trickeries without his old passive, either. 3 Fight, 6 Body, 3 Wits, 4 Spirit - his stats basically read as "I'm really tough to kill but don't excel at anything else," and his new power just exacerbates that issue. Sure, it may prove useful, but with that stat lineup you really should be aiming for a means of killing the king, because chances are you won't win passively. Warrior Ghor is what I predict we'll see, probably using Discipline, Scratch, or Think.

If you DO pursue a spellcasting Ghor... Well, others are just so much better at it. Sana's spirit is better, and she can use Spirit to fight Corrupted things. Twiss is definitely still a solid mage. Sargon can predict what spells he'll want to take. Etc.

No, you're going to want to do quests, build up your fighting power, and try to use your awesome life-saving Guardian ability to stay alive where others would die. With 4 spirit you can cast your key spells (or two buffs in one turn), so focusing on Fight with at least 1 quest into Wits makes a lot of sense.

If you do go mage Ghor, Jade or Amethyst will be absolutely necessary, but that was always the case for Ghor.

"Hot Rot Wine into palace next turn?"

Hot rot wine will damage you, so it will remove his shield. Strategist will work.

Fair point. Even more reason to feel disappointed concerning this hero power. Again, it's GREAT balance-wise for the game, but it feels bad to me as a long time fan of Ghor. At least the game's overall health will improve.

Also glad they made Ghor less of a glass cannon troll now, he's always felt like either too weak or too strong (depending on the board). Glad he might finally fit in.

He's never been weak, ever. Even with a bad board, his powers have been relevant and useful. It's just always been a question of "Is Ghor going to dominate the match, or will others have a chance of winning?"

I loved his playstyle. It was different than everyone else. Do your first 3 quests; smash everyone else with debuffs and attack spells; make everyone's lives Hell; then, once the stars align properly, smash into the palace and kill the King... or win via Prestige if you've kept everyone THAT weak (which would happen sometimes).

[Durzlla]

What i'm curious is will it work as completely negating the next damage he takes from combat? because if so this will be fantastic, you and a turn in a forest and then you can walk around doing whatever the hell you want knowing that you're safe from the next person to try and whack you. And since his ability was nerfed it was either brokenly OP or completely trash depending on how the map generated.

With just needing to END your turn in a forest (which bears tend to do anyway) this will make him much stronger! Especially if he now gains stealth in forests again!!

[Doesn't Learn From Mistakes]

Durzila, it works by negating the next damage instance.

All that needs to be done to negate it, even while stealthed, is a tanglevine or hidden trap before attacking.

[Durzlla]

Originally posted by AI Player 1:

Durzila, it works by negating the next damage instance.

All that needs to be done to negate it, even while stealthed, is a tanglevine or hidden trap before attacking.

I mean, that's fine, it means that if ghor ends his turn in combat they NEED to burn a card before attacking him and beating the ♥♥♥♥ out of that poor little bear instead of getting to do it at no cost.

[FableNights]

Originally posted by Meeky:

For example, let's say that League of Geeks wants to make a 2v2 mode.

LoG has already gone on note in the past saying they wouldn't have a 2v2 mode in Armello. They didn't give a reason why, but it's obvious to anyone who plays the game.

Armello isn't built for 2v2, it would require many changes to how the game is played as Armello is built to be a free-for-all.

[Meeky]

Originally posted by LunarFrost:

Originally posted by Meeky:

For example, let's say that League of Geeks wants to make a 2v2 mode.

LoG has already gone on note in the past saying they wouldn't have a 2v2 mode in Armello. They didn't give a reason why, but it's obvious to anyone who plays the game.

Armello isn't built for 2v2, it would require many changes to how the game is played as Armello is built to be a free-for-all.

Well, actually...

Originally posted by LoG WordSlice:

Originally posted by Meeky:

Honestly, I think more game modes are the answer, if that's possible.

This is a fair suggestion, but naturally it's a heavy (costly) one. A 2v2 mode would require a fundamental rebalance of the game and a bunch of UI to support it. Also splitting the queues has an associated risk of blowing out queue times, so there's that too.

I hope that we can pursue something like this that will provide an option for everyone's play style.


<3 Darcy

It's not something I'd expect any time in the near future, and LoG definitely recognizes the resource costs involved (as do I). However, it is a possibility, however remote, and the changes Ghor has seen and the general rebalancing efforts are positive moves in that regard.

If we get new game modes, balancing the core gameplay first is key.

[Merethys]

Originally posted by Durzlla:

Originally posted by AI Player 1:

Durzila, it works by negating the next damage instance.

All that needs to be done to negate it, even while stealthed, is a tanglevine or hidden trap before attacking.

I mean, that's fine, it means that if ghor ends his turn in combat they NEED to burn a card before attacking him and beating the ♥♥♥♥ out of that poor little bear instead of getting to do it at no cost.

That means the best counter to new Ghor would be River, right? Her arrow would cancel the shield before combat.

[Tei]

Originally posted by Meeky:

I think it's going to increase the variety of strategies and builds used in games. Doubling things numerically may seem boring, but sometimes all you need is a numerical tweak to make something work. And if it unbalances things in the end, they can still reverse the offending balance tweak.

You are right on Amethyst, though I feel that Rainbow Quartz still won't be a first pick.

It's not just that doubling so many things is boring. There's just a very low chance that so many different rings and amulets just needed +1. When things serve different functions and have different strengths and weaknesses, they should be treated differently accordingly. Armello is also a game that doesn't allow for very good numerical tweaks because the numbers are so low. There was pretty much just one option, going from 1 to 2. Why take an approach to balance that allows for almost no fine tuning later?

[Durzlla]

Originally posted by Merethys:

Originally posted by Durzlla:

I mean, that's fine, it means that if ghor ends his turn in combat they NEED to burn a card before attacking him and beating the ♥♥♥♥ out of that poor little bear instead of getting to do it at no cost.

That means the best counter to new Ghor would be River, right? Her arrow would cancel the shield before combat.

at least from a combat perspective yeah, but to be honest she's not all that much more threatening in combat than Ghor can be.

I'm more terrified to see the new ghor as a rot lord, throwing himself into people without any fear of dying in that combat.