The vore ships, ironically, aren't very good

[Spear Deer]

When you factor in how much cheaper/more mobile boarding ships are, and how incredibly good fire ships are (like wtf?) the vore can't really compete. I've started just building the default ships, and its working much better. Why are the aquatic factions ships so terrible?

[Astasia]

Ya I probably made the connection after catspawing one which does boost it up to 10+, and seeing the dust cost just reinforced my mistake.

Artis will one shot equally equipped fire ships if there's a good hero leading them. Otherwise they do about 2/3 the health of a fire ship. This is using the high damage weapons not the high range ones.

Meowgrls really need to spam Vores and take as much of the ocean as fast as they, not only to fuel their faction abilities which cost influence, but because their faction quest requires owning most of the ocean by chapter 5. It's easier to do it as early as possible, later game formorian fleets will chew right through vores.

[Rollin' it]

Vores are suppose to take sea before any other race do. I think that they fulfil that role well. Late r on you can use Leviathans/Fire ships etc

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The problem with vores is their equipment is VERY EXPENSIVE. Use unequipped vores to get them out faster in the early game.

[Spear Deer]

I think the real problem is how outclassed every class of ship is by each class of ship following it. That isn't true for other factions really. Stalwarts are good all game, as are assassins and Dekari Rangers, and Warlocks. Ship combat is handled far less elegently, and it makes it feel bland.

[Kermode Bear]

I'd have to agree, sadly. There's little reason to use anything other than fire ships. The DoT is obscene - it's like having two units for the price of one.

[Your Mother's A Good Woman]

Originally posted by KermodeBear:

I'd have to agree, sadly. There's little reason to use anything other than fire ships. The DoT is obscene - it's like having two units for the price of one.

Yup. I had a high quality sub, and was up against 3 fire ships. By all means going by the attack and defense scores alone, I should've mopped the floor with those ships. Yet even without the persistent fire damage, they were still hitting me with a 120 attack, versus my 480 defense.

Granted, I am playing on serious difficulty this time around. So it's likely rigged in their favor. But yeah, fire ships are the way to go. Even a fleet of juggernauts gets wrecked by a fleet of them.

[Grzemek]

Vores without upgrades are cheap to roll out and Vores with basic Iron gear are monsters. Utilize Rapid Mutation to have the boets of both worlds and voila.

The "gear" of my naval units (basically only Vores when I play Morgawr), unless I feel like hunting Hungering Maw is their level. That's why Main Maritime Academy is good, same as coastal battery (5 Adamantian building that gives another +40 XP upon recruitment and 0,5 naval retaliation factor). My 6 Iron gear Vores vs 6 Iron gear Fire Ships of AI will win with heavy losses - either 2-3 will survive or all will survive with sliver of health if I had an opportunity for perfect positioning and aggro juggling. So I guess Morgawr Fire Ships woulb perform even better due to level avantage. Still, Morgawr quest that gives you tons of: luxuries, strategics, tier 3 weapons/armor and Dust-Mind Decoupling totems requires Vores to research AND tech slots are super valuable, so I rarely research Fire Imbalances.

Also, in Era II, Leviathans eat Fire Ships and basically all Fomorians alive. Batyspheres are a joke, but Leviathans live up to their name. Submersible -> immune to being set on fire, so f*ck your 20% Health per turn in a 6 turn battles, Fire S h i t s.

Originally posted by KermodeBear:

Granted, I am playing on serious difficulty this time around. So it's likely rigged in their favor.

Serious, Newbie or Endless, AI units' stats do not change. Unless you meant they will be geared with high tier strat gear, but even on Newbie AI will do that. Just at much slower pace.

[Your Mother's A Good Woman]

I'm not saying the stats change, but they had an insanely high chance to do 0 damage (120 attack vs. my 480 defense), yet they managed to avoid it every single attack. Meanwhile my attack was 100, and their defense was about 140, and I missed about 3 times in that battle.

Like I said, it's my first match playing on a difficulty higher than hard, so I'm not 100% certain if this is how the dice rolls are going to be, or if it was just a pure fluke on their AI's behalf. But that battle sure as hell seemed rigged to me.

[Grzemek]

I was playing on Hard for a long time, switched to Serious few months ago and I didn't notice the things you are describing. Maybe we actually experience similar things but I underestimate your description and/or you exagerate :) Honestly I never watch the percentages, I look at my attack/defence and enemy defence/attack. And I get kinda expected outcomes. Sometimes I have BS streaks but in general things are K.

[Thornstromb]

I'm reading through and laughing at some of the insanity I'm reading.

Vore: early on, their jaws of doom will SHATTER fomorian boarders. you need 2-3 to do so agaisnt standard 2-man fleets, but thats easy to do. soon as fire ships show up then naked vores become useless.... but 1: you can retrofit them ANYWHERE to no longer be "naked", and 2: by then you should be making Leviathans instead, more on that in a bit. never, EVER use Acid Spray until Era 4 Hyp/Mith ones, which dont have reduced damage output... but noone noticed Turtle ;) they are significantly harder to kill after turtling, but how to make them survive the first hit? HYPERIUM ACCESSORY. yeah, ignore first hit, permaturtle, now these guys take minimum 3 hits to kill unless arti gets a really lucky crit. all of that doesnt change what they DO in endgame... ie: soften up for others. vores arent damage dealers, they are enablers. a fleet of vores is crap past Era1. a fleet WITH one or two vores? ouch. Noone seems to notice that unlike the fomorian ships, Morgawr actually prefer mixed force tactics. Also, unlike boarders/levis, Vores have an extra item slot (prows). sidenote: 2 naked vores can generally take the first 2 fortresses without healing up. esp with hero support.

Leviathan: These are your bread and butter. period. once you unlock, you should start pumping out naked or seminaked (add armor. NEVER EVER use hydrofoils on levis) ones for ALL your needs. army of fomorian Anything? levis with slayer engi. CRUNCH. no matter what it is, it WILL have trouble punching through levi submerged defenses. and fireships are a joke. need to garrison up your forts? make levis with Titanium accessory. +2 morale on top of all those defenses is pretty dope. if your rolling in the strategics, add the Hyp accessory for extra unstoppability. always use Jaws on levis btw. especially if hunting the Sea Monster.

so what if they cost a bit? with control of all the forts comes naval cost reduction up the wazoo. strategics? you likley wont even need extractor tech if you have all the seas on a reasonably sized map. the only things in the game that are actually a THREAT to a solid morgawr fleet is a really good artillery fleet and the Sea Monster. the latter, they STILL have an easier time with than anyone else thanks to Jaw bonuses, and the former come into play at the same time morg gets its best equipment. On the oceans, NOONE can compete.

and then someone lands an army on your doorstep and you lose. jk. make sure to have some catspaw-able/ed groups near your cities, with a few masterminds sitting on top. Bloodlust/Hecatomb sound bad until you realize you can use them from reinforcement spawns to buff/sacrifice disposable minor faction units.

"not enough dust income"? now you know the REAL challenge of playing Morgawr, heh.

[Spear Deer]

I hope you realize how both out of date and irrelevant your comment is. A lot has been done to rebalance the state of the the faction since its release, and the fact of the matter is that on launch the vore ships WEREN'T very good. Even now they are considered one of the worst factions, since naval combat was hastily and poorly constructed, with a strange asymetry in faction power and lack of tactical or strategic decisions during combat.

I don't know what difficulty you play at, but unless you edit neutral faction power, any difficulty hard+ sees fomorian borading vessels kick the ♥♥♥♥ out of the default Mog ship. This is not my opinion, this is just a comparison of damage potential. Fomorians go first, and they have a massive attack stat buff from their passive, and they crit for the majority of your health bar. Even if you can make a trade at a better ratio than 1:1, that doesn't make up for the fact that Mog's have to dumpster their own expansion and econ to get ships out fast enough to be relevant.

I'm curious what environment you're playing in. If we are really so wrong, then make some recording of you wrecking fomorian ships pre-turn 20 (or turn 10 for that matter, by which a fast game will be in era II). Show us your turn benchmarks, show us your master strats. The consensus from all of the REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY good players in the community is that Tempest is by and large a negative influence on game balance with resource distribution, and that the Mog are unplayably bad if you're not going to exploit the AI's hamfistedness. Barring god-tier luck in spawning, they will die to any player playing an even remotely aggressive faction before turn 25.

[Thornstromb]

derp, didnt notice post date... dont post on steam discussions often. sorry to bother.