The combat system

[Questionable]

I really, sincerely, deeply wish that at literally any point Amplitude had taken the time to rework the combat system to be at least remotely sensible and have any kind of readability or control.
We all know its terrible but I'm currently forcing myself to use it just to get a feel for HOW bad it is but the most frustrating thing is that the framework for a good combat system is all there its just the stupid "queue commands then auto-play based on initiative" that quickly throws all strategy out of the window as units shuffle about after seemingly random targets and the complete lack of readability with the obtuse UI and vague stats that lead to units doing absolutely no damage or absolutely obscene damage seemingly out of nowhere with very little feedback as to WHY that's happening.

I'm gonna be honestly pretty mad if Humankind fixes this while Endless Legend was just *allowed* to be bad, cause I have no interest in civ-like 'historical' games. Like if you're going to take heed of bad choices and learn from them could you at least have the courtesy to rectify the problem in the game that the problem originates from instead of letting a pretty big portion of the game just rot, neglected.

[Gilmoy]

EL's tactical combat system is 100% controllable. Controlling it well is how we scale up to beating ELCP Serious (or ELCP Endless on a good map).

Use Ctrl-right click and Alt right-click. Explain, in your own words, what these commands do, to demonstrate that you're using them correctly.

Using the (Attack / Damage) ratio as an index into a hit table is odd, but not weirder than other games' damage systems. Yes, this is not explained in real-time within the game's own UI, but no other complex system is, either.

EL was a success, and it earned its money. It earned enough to keep Amplitude employed.
By any measure, that's a success, especially in this industry.

If you think it's bad, play something else. You're years late to convince anybody, so at this point you're preaching to an empty barn.

We won't convince you it's a good system. But learn it well enough to beat stock EL Endless AIs. Then you'll at least be able to explain its flaws more precisely. We can help you with that.

Personally, I find that the shallow nature of EL AIs is a deeper and more permanent flaw. Tactical combats are like a chess program with 1-ply look-ahead, which values all of its pieces for 0 centipawns each. Ultimately, it's boring, more of the same old. I understand how market realities forced that outcome, too: Amplitude doesn't have Google money to throw at dev teams for years without product.

I thought EL, overall, was an excellent game. I grew out of it, so I play other games now. If I did resume playing, I know I could jump in and dominate all over again, c.f. to learn Kapaku. But I do control every move and every swing of every tactical combat, with precision, from turn 3 to turn 120. Do that well and you should be winning vs. 7 stock Endless AIs right around turn 130, by conquering them all. That's a normal pace.

Win like that consistently with any 3 EL factions, and then I'll explain how Kapaku are different

[Questionable]

EL was a success in spite of its combat system, the great art direction, music, faction design and story. The combat system is easily the weakest of all, look at any review of the game and it is always touted as the weakest part of the game if not a flat negative that drags it down from a great game to just a good one. I have hundreds of hours in Endless Legend, I've been playing it since launch, that I managed that in spite of the combat system speaks to how good every other aspect of the game is but the obtuse combat system still drags the game down. Just like the pointless aggression of the AI drags the game down (the AI will always ALWAYS chose to attack you if they have even a marginal advantage during cold war even when their opinion of you is positive).
You're kidding yourself if you think the majority of players don't just brute force auto-resolve their way through the whole game because of how bad the combat is to try to control.

Alt allows you to force a move command to a tile even if its occupied.
Ctrl allows you to queue an attack command on a specific target after a move command.


First off this doesn't resolve the core issue with the EL combat system, that you cannot issue commands adaptively, you have to issue all commands in the prep round then watch them automatically play out over the course of the round, if the opponent moves in some unpredictable fashion (which is common due to the wonky pathing causing units to take some rather bizarre routes to get to their target) your units can quickly be left in a poor position very easily, if any of your units do not have superior initiative to the enemy units you're basically leaving your commands up to chance.

Secondly I highly doubt barely anyone knows about these commands. Barely anyone plays tutorials or remembers every detail and even the tutorial doesn't mention the alt-rightclick command. Even the Endless Legend wikis don't have information on these controls.

[LeaderEnemyBoss]

The combat system is good imo, just a bit bad explained (like many of ELs mechanics). Games have to make compromises and I personally prefer my 4x combats to not be too involved. Otherwise you get a game where combat takes forever and basically dominates the game instaed of the whole empire management and strategy part. That is exactly what I dislike about AoW planetfall. I dont want XCom Battles in my 4x. If I want that, I play XCom.

As for your initiative complain: Well thats kinda what makes initiative a desireable stat, isnt it? Except for some units, where you actually want to get hit (mainly tanks with defensive abilities like sweep strike back).

[ashbery76]

I don't really get the hate for the combat system.It is fast paced and has tactics.I feel it is misunderstood more than poor.

[Groo the one]

The first setting to change before starting new game (for whatever reason it's not possible to do so in a running game...), is to set combat speed to fastest. Else you fall asleep while combat lasts.

Also worth to watch, an old but still golden guide series for Endless Legend combat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3eREwr0MmI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yxvL4gI_Xw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5bIAGYUl-M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOWTaV6-s1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdSyMqiX4RI

[Nefrogitis]

I don't like combat-focused games that much, so I am fine with combat the way it is. It's not bad, but it could have been more engaging for sure. I remind myself that it's a part of the game, but not the whole game.

[utilityguy]

I'm just glad Humankind gives the player more control over the combat, making it unit by unit instead of prep phase|Resolve Phase..

[orbops]

Personally I think the combat system is the best I've ever played. By manually moving each unit, it's like playing a game of chess. I've often been able to beat a stronger opponent/army by utilizing the landscape and playing to each units strengths vs the AI's weaknesses. If you put it on autoresolve, you're depriving yourself of the best controlled combat system.

[ElPrezCBF]

From the original post, I think there is a lack of understanding about how EL's combat system works. The strategy is in designing your units with the most appropriate counters to the enemy types you're most likely to face, be it bonuses against certain enemy types or equipment that boost specific stats to compensate for weaknesses in certain unit types. Once combat starts, your pre-designed units and their abilities come into play. And attacks are not completely random. I believe that besides unit initiative that determines which ones attack first, the other factor that determines which enemy unit is targeted depends on the clearest (not necessarily shortest) path to the target. So there's also strategy in moving your units during battle so as not to block your other units from their targets as much as possible and as far as their initiative is higher than the enemy's.

Also, if your units fail to do damage to the enemy, it's because your attacking unit's attack stat is lower than the defending unit's defense stat. I believe the larger the difference between the attack and defense stats of the opposing sides, the more likely you are to hit or miss depending on which side's stat is bigger. The damage stat only comes into play when your attack stat is higher than the enemy unit's defense stat and you manage to land a hit with a favorable RNG.

Tbh, EL's combat system is probably the best I've seen in a 4x game. If you want more direct control in real time battles, then Total War might be a better option for you instead.

[John Pork]

Originally posted by Ratmannf:

From the original post, I think there is a lack of understanding about how EL's combat system works. The strategy is in designing your units with the most appropriate counters to the enemy types you're most likely to face, be it bonuses against certain enemy types or equipment that boost specific stats to compensate for weaknesses in certain unit types. Once combat starts, your pre-designed units and their abilities come into play. And attacks are not completely random. I believe that besides unit initiative that determines which ones attack first, the other factor that determines which enemy unit is targeted depends on the clearest (not necessarily shortest) path to the target. So there's also strategy in moving your units during battle so as not to block your other units from their targets as much as possible and as far as their initiative is higher than the enemy's.

Also, if your units fail to do damage to the enemy, it's because your attacking unit's attack stat is lower than the defending unit's defense stat. I believe the larger the difference between the attack and defense stats of the opposing sides, the more likely you are to hit or miss depending on which side's stat is bigger. The damage stat only comes into play when your attack stat is higher than the enemy unit's defense stat and you manage to land a hit with a favorable RNG.

Tbh, EL's combat system is probably the best I've seen in a 4x game. If you want more direct control in real time battles, then Total War might be a better option for you instead.

Your sneedy little conclusion at end lol. If you dont like it go elsewhere rhetoric.


Anyways i love endless legend. And i love endless space 2. I also own all the dlc and love their content. I do enjoy endless space 2 combat... However...


Endless legend is in the right direction for combat. Its simple battlefield creates a chess like situation. However more stimulation is required. A player could prepare for war and edit units, recruit minor factions and such and have the focus on prep like the Dominions series. But it would be great to add one additional hands on feature for battlefield control. Faction spells or abilities. How about cards we collect through technology or hero tree that you can play during combat, and they cost dust? That would be neat

[ElPrezCBF]

Originally posted by Dignity:

Originally posted by Ratmannf:

From the original post, I think there is a lack of understanding about how EL's combat system works. The strategy is in designing your units with the most appropriate counters to the enemy types you're most likely to face, be it bonuses against certain enemy types or equipment that boost specific stats to compensate for weaknesses in certain unit types. Once combat starts, your pre-designed units and their abilities come into play. And attacks are not completely random. I believe that besides unit initiative that determines which ones attack first, the other factor that determines which enemy unit is targeted depends on the clearest (not necessarily shortest) path to the target. So there's also strategy in moving your units during battle so as not to block your other units from their targets as much as possible and as far as their initiative is higher than the enemy's.

Also, if your units fail to do damage to the enemy, it's because your attacking unit's attack stat is lower than the defending unit's defense stat. I believe the larger the difference between the attack and defense stats of the opposing sides, the more likely you are to hit or miss depending on which side's stat is bigger. The damage stat only comes into play when your attack stat is higher than the enemy unit's defense stat and you manage to land a hit with a favorable RNG.

Tbh, EL's combat system is probably the best I've seen in a 4x game. If you want more direct control in real time battles, then Total War might be a better option for you instead.

Your sneedy little conclusion at end lol. If you dont like it go elsewhere rhetoric.


Anyways i love endless legend. And i love endless space 2. I also own all the dlc and love their content. I do enjoy endless space 2 combat... However...


Endless legend is in the right direction for combat. Its simple battlefield creates a chess like situation. However more stimulation is required. A player could prepare for war and edit units, recruit minor factions and such and have the focus on prep like the Dominions series. But it would be great to add one additional hands on feature for battlefield control. Faction spells or abilities. How about cards we collect through technology or hero tree that you can play during combat, and they cost dust? That would be neat

Not rhetoric but friendly advice. This is a six year old game that's pretty much done and any major change to the combat mechanics is highly unlikely at this stage. But you could feedback on the official forum and maybe they'll consider some new ideas for EL2 if that's next. But for now, Humankind is their next big project.

[Groo the one]

Originally posted by Ratmannf:

But you could feedback on the official forum and maybe they'll consider some new ideas for EL2 if that's next. But for now, Humankind is their next big project.

Just for the record, past Humankind Endless Dungeon is the next project -> https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/endless-dungeon

[ElPrezCBF]

Originally posted by Groo the one:

Originally posted by Ratmannf:

But you could feedback on the official forum and maybe they'll consider some new ideas for EL2 if that's next. But for now, Humankind is their next big project.

Just for the record, past Humankind Endless Dungeon is the next project -> https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/endless-dungeon

Looks like a Dungeon of the Endless sequel. I was hoping for another 4x or maybe an Xcom-like game. But if it goes well, I might try it for a change.

[Mors Avis]

It has always baffled me as to why people claim that the combat system in Endless Legend is "broken", when it clearly isn't. In truth, it is a unique system, one that does not really exist in other games, and therefore will actually require some time/effort to understand. The tutorial videos by Waervyn's world are excellent, and should be required viewing for any new player.

I think a lot of the confusion comes from new players having pre-conceived ideas about the combat system based on other games, like Civ V/VI or Age of Wonders.

The great thing about the combat system in EL is that it is "light", but "deep"--especially when you start really considering combat stats, gear, and capacities--it uses the game board's terrain in an interesting way, and allows for tactical battles that don't take forever to resolve. It's a blend between tactical and real-time combat, and it's a system that stands on its own.

[the_charch]

It is a bit more difficult for people to grasp and understand because it is quite a bit different from anything else. And imo it does work quite well for something created fresh. Had it been better explained and maybe even a tool tip during combat explaining how those key presses worked it would have had a totally different reception.