Sid Meier's Civilization VI

Sid Meier's Civilization VI

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PantherDave Jun 14, 2024 @ 6:45pm
How to Attack
Part 1. How to Attack

I have been playing Civ since it was first developed. I have logged over 18,000 hours on Civ VI alone. I know, I need to get out more. But I use Civ like meditation, to still my busy mind. It's interesting and immersive but not so challenging that it taxes me and for that I'm grateful. But of late I've grown frustrated with the AI. It really sucks at attacking.

For the last year I have been deliberately playing with a paired down game configuration. I turn off all means to victory bar domination. I've experimented with various mods to try and test out the AI. I would like to share some of my observations with my fellow gamers and maybe, in the vain hope, that the designers might make some changes to improve the AI to make it more challenging.

What I have observed is that when under attack an AI controlled nation will throw its forces piecemeal at the enemy invader. Sometimes it looks like a coordinated strategy but it really isn't. It all depends on where their forces start. Next, each melee or tank unit will attack the invader units without waiting for any supporting fires to degrade the enemy. Ranged and siege units are not protected either by having a screen of line units in front of them or by stacking with a line unit. They are easy targets for destruction.

So here's what I do to attack them. Note for my example I'm using the Atomic Era units. I wait till I have assembled an attack force of:
- 3 x siege units (at whatever the largest size allowable is - eg unit, corps or army)
- 3 x inf units (ditto)
- 3 x tank units
- 1 x cav unit
- 3 x AT units
- 2 x balloon units
- 1 x medic
- a steady reinforcement of ranged units to garrison captured cities
- 2 or more mil engineer units
- 2 or more fighter ( if these are available)
- 3 or more bombers (if these are available)
- 3 x battleships ( if city is within range of the coast )
- 3 x destroyers (ditto)

I organise my attack force into the following groups/stacks:
- 3 x land assault groups, each comprising 1 x Siege, 1 x Inf, 1 x Tk
- two of the assault Gps have a balloon or drone while the remaining Gp has the medic

I look for an approach that avoids the enemy encampment. If this is not possible, then I will reduce and occupy the encampment as a preliminary stage. I move my assault groups en masse as stacks and line these up at the maximum bombard range of my siege units. In the Atomic period that's three hexes out from the city centre with Arty units , provided they are stacked with or adjacent to a balloon unit. This places them beyond the range of the city's defensive fires.

I aim to have my three assault stacks adjacent to each other. This is not always possible. But remember that the two most important principles of war are concentration and mutual support.

So, with my three assault stacks lined up within range of the city, I bombard it till its defences are degraded to red. Then I assault with my tanks. Most cases they fall to the first such assault, sometimes they may require two or all three tank units to conquer the city. Then I reinforce the occupying tank unit with an AT unit, a ranged unit and the medic. The medic heals the assault force quickly.

Note this will see my siege units still protected by the inf units stacked with them. I push forward my mil eng units to repair the rail between my forward rail-head and the conquered city. I protect these by stacking an AT unit on them.

I aim to maintain a continuous defence line. But this is not always possible. So, I position my Cav unit close enough to respond to any enemy intruder that gets behind my lines.

The next turn, I will aim to move my stacks of siege/inf forward to reunite with their tank unit. If the enemy responds with its own counterattacks then this may only be as far as the conquered city. But as the offensive grinds on, enemy counterattacks will be rare and you can usually push your assault stacks to within range of the next enemy city. And so the procedure is repeated.

As I mentioned, the AI will throw its forces in piecemeal. If they do so en masse then I will prioritise their destruction with my ranged and siege units and leave the city's defences till after they have been dealt with. I will prioritise the enemy's siege and ranged units, confident that my stacked inf will protect my guns.

I use my fighters to degrade enemy units and my bombers to bombard the city. I organise my ships into three stacks, each comprising a destroyer and a battleship. The destroyer unit will protect the battleship from enemy fires. The battleships can bombard the city or degrade enemy land units.

I have found that smaller cities fall in the two or three turns, larger cities within three or four. This is a steamroller strategy that aims to destroy the enemy army while protecting my army. It works a treat. It is exactly the strategy that the Russians used in WW2 and are now using in Ukraine. So far the AI has proved incapable of defeating this.
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Showing 1-8 of 8 comments
PantherDave Jun 14, 2024 @ 7:46pm 
Part 2 How should the AI defend better?

So, how can the AI do better at defending against my steamroller attack. Clearly just throwing units in piecemeal is not going to hack it. The AI needs to embrace the same two principles I use for the attack, namely concentration and mutual support. My attack strategy relies on fires - ie the ability to degrade units and defences with ranged fire from MG units, bombardment from siege, battleship and bomber units and strafing from fighter units.

The best approach for the defenders is to degrade/destroy my fire units. This can be achieved a number of different ways. Defending fire units need to concentrate their fire on one of the attacking stacks till it is forced to withdraw and repair or it is degraded to a point where it can be assaulted by counterattacking tank and inf. A defending force organised on similiar lines to my attacking stacks could be deployed adjacent to the targeted city. Then it is a battle of attrition between opposing fire units. Long range bombers flying from rear bases can attack attacking airbases to neutralise offensive fires.

But for the AI to be successful in defence it needs to maintain a stronger military of the right composition. In all my testing I have yet to see the AI produce enough forces. I suspect the AI is not taking into account that I have ruled out all paths to victory other than domination. It still prioritises cultural and scientific pathways.

Assuming this gets addressed, AI nations need to assess the military capabilities of any potential threat. It's all good and well to have a force of AT units against an enemy heavy in tank and cav, but these AT units won't degrade enemy fire units protected by inf before they themselves are destroyed. A good defence required combined arms like a good offence. More fire units are needed.

The AI needs to assemble and concentrate its forces and move in a coordinated manner. It should aim to form lines of mutually supporting units. It needs to know when to switch from an attrition battle of fires to a breakthrough assault. The trigger for this should be the strength of enemy inf protecting their fire units.

There are a lot more options to canvas. But as lunch is ready here I'll leave this for others to discuss.
SlasH Jun 15, 2024 @ 6:01am 
Better make this a guide rather than simply a board posting.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/289070/guides/
plaguepenguin Jun 15, 2024 @ 6:50am 
The "intelligence" half of the phrase "AI", in this game or in any context, is a marketing gimmick, not at all an accurate descriptor. The AI civs operate according to programs that dictate their actions, not by standing back and analyzing a game state in order to choose the set of actions that best serves their interests. A program can't analyze, can't make choices, and has no interests. It has to be amazingly detailed to respond, as it does in this game,with any sort of illusion that it is doing strategy, that an actual intelligence is guiding decisions it is making.

It is certainly true that the programs the AI civs follow could be tightened up. Yes, absolutely, the situation you describe where you have disabled all victory conditions except domination, could and should have been programmed to make the AI focus pretty ruthlessly on building plenty of units, at least in the late game as you describe. That's a pretty clear and categorical condition -- late game with military techs all unlocked already, and domination the only way to win -- upon which the programmers could write a set of responses for the AI that is better at keeping you from winning than what the AIs do now, continue to devote resources to culture,science,etc.

Of course, before the end-game, neither you nor the AI can at all afford to ignore science, culture, and all the etceteras, because this is a well-designed complex game, and every single etcetera system in the game can be brought together to produce by the end-game any of the victory types. There's absolutely no simple program that categorically prioritizes building military units all through the game that is going to lead the AI anywhere but to disaster, and being even easier for you to beat than it is now. Even in the very late game, unless you create the very special condition of limiting victory to domination only, a reasonable program can't dictate spamming units as the only priority, or some other civ will sneak by with one of the other victory types.

So, sure, the devs failed to put into the program for the AI players a good response for the very late game in which all victories but domination have been disabled. Their program also fails to let the AI players do a good job of simulating strategy in all sorts of other edge cases the game doesn't really focus on. An inherent drawback to all the modes is that the AI players' programs have pretty clearly not been adjusted to make reasonable accommodation for the rules differences the modes introduce, so playing with any of them tends to give the human player an unfair advantage. And some of the civ/leaders you can play as have mechanics that the AI also clearly can't change responses to counteract at all sufficiently.

In general,the idea that an AI in this game should be able to assess your intentions and your capabilities is quite beyond anything any AI in the world right now can do in any context. All we have right now are programs of various complexity and sophistication, and the current Civ6 program is not sophisticated enough to simulate strategic thought at all well in the end game with only domination victory enabled.

If you want a challenge from the AI you have to give it a handicap, because you can do strategy, you can assess a game state and your opponents' intentions and capabilities, and all the AI has is a program. Give it all the Deity advantages, and you will sometimes see both adequate defense and even successful conquest, at least sometimes, especially if you don't luck into a good starting location and haven't dealt yourself an S-tier civ. I suspect you are playing at a lower difficulty, because the conquest method you describe relies on a brute force advantage, in quantity and/or quality of units, and you don't have that luxury against Deity until and unless you have already clawed your way to the top, and your victory by any of the victory types is pretty much assured. Why worry about strategic challenge after you have already effectively won?

If you want a challenge from players who can actually do strategy and therefore don't need a handicap, play against fellow humans.
Last edited by plaguepenguin; Jun 15, 2024 @ 7:06am
PantherDave Jun 15, 2024 @ 3:36pm 
Originally posted by SlasH:
Better make this a guide rather than simply a board posting.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/289070/guides/
Thanks SlasH for the heads up about guids. I'll look into it.
PantherDave Jun 15, 2024 @ 4:03pm 
Originally posted by plaguepenguin:
The "intelligence" half of the phrase "AI", in this game or in any context, is a marketing gimmick, not at all an accurate descriptor. The AI civs operate according to programs that dictate their actions, not by standing back and analyzing a game state in order to choose the set of actions that best serves their interests. A program can't analyze, can't make choices, and has no interests. It has to be amazingly detailed to respond, as it does in this game,with any sort of illusion that it is doing strategy, that an actual intelligence is guiding decisions it is making.

It is certainly true that the programs the AI civs follow could be tightened up. Yes, absolutely, the situation you describe where you have disabled all victory conditions except domination, could and should have been programmed to make the AI focus pretty ruthlessly on building plenty of units, at least in the late game as you describe. That's a pretty clear and categorical condition -- late game with military techs all unlocked already, and domination the only way to win -- upon which the programmers could write a set of responses for the AI that is better at keeping you from winning than what the AIs do now, continue to devote resources to culture,science,etc.

Of course, before the end-game, neither you nor the AI can at all afford to ignore science, culture, and all the etceteras, because this is a well-designed complex game, and every single etcetera system in the game can be brought together to produce by the end-game any of the victory types. There's absolutely no simple program that categorically prioritizes building military units all through the game that is going to lead the AI anywhere but to disaster, and being even easier for you to beat than it is now. Even in the very late game, unless you create the very special condition of limiting victory to domination only, a reasonable program can't dictate spamming units as the only priority, or some other civ will sneak by with one of the other victory types.

So, sure, the devs failed to put into the program for the AI players a good response for the very late game in which all victories but domination have been disabled. Their program also fails to let the AI players do a good job of simulating strategy in all sorts of other edge cases the game doesn't really focus on. An inherent drawback to all the modes is that the AI players' programs have pretty clearly not been adjusted to make reasonable accommodation for the rules differences the modes introduce, so playing with any of them tends to give the human player an unfair advantage. And some of the civ/leaders you can play as have mechanics that the AI also clearly can't change responses to counteract at all sufficiently.

In general,the idea that an AI in this game should be able to assess your intentions and your capabilities is quite beyond anything any AI in the world right now can do in any context. All we have right now are programs of various complexity and sophistication, and the current Civ6 program is not sophisticated enough to simulate strategic thought at all well in the end game with only domination victory enabled.

If you want a challenge from the AI you have to give it a handicap, because you can do strategy, you can assess a game state and your opponents' intentions and capabilities, and all the AI has is a program. Give it all the Deity advantages, and you will sometimes see both adequate defense and even successful conquest, at least sometimes, especially if you don't luck into a good starting location and haven't dealt yourself an S-tier civ. I suspect you are playing at a lower difficulty, because the conquest method you describe relies on a brute force advantage, in quantity and/or quality of units, and you don't have that luxury against Deity until and unless you have already clawed your way to the top, and your victory by any of the victory types is pretty much assured. Why worry about strategic challenge after you have already effectively won?

If you want a challenge from players who can actually do strategy and therefore don't need a handicap, play against fellow humans.

plaguepenguin,
Thank you for your detailed response. It's most appreciated.

You are right, you can't ignore science and culture etc as they all give your civ benefits direct and indirect for winning a domination victory not to mention any of the other victory types. I'm advocating that the AI should scale these back, not eliminate them, when the sole victory mode is domination.

But I do contest your assertion that "that an AI in this game should be able to assess your intentions and your capabilities is quite beyond anything any AI in the world right now can do in any context".

But first a disclaimer. I am the designer and AI programmer for a WW2 operational wargame called Command Ops. It's sold on Steam. I have been writing AI for this game engine since 1995 - so almost 30 years now. I've also done consulting for the military in this space.

Now, Command Ops (Cmd Ops) does in fact assess intentions and capabilities of the opposing side. It's pretty smart but not perfect. No AI ever will be. But it is possible to write an AI that does assess. I contend that Civ VI does that already, albeit at a very basic level. It clearly assesses when enemy forces move close to their borders and reacts. It send the human player a back-off message and if the border is breached it sends its troops to face them.

What I am asking for is a little more sophistication. I'm not calling for it to be as detailed as Cmd Ops is but I would like to see it better.

As a gamer I hate the practice of allowing the AI to cheat by gaining perfect intel on the enemy and I loathe lazy AI that require advantages like improved resource rates and yields. Good AI should eschew these practices. But for that to happen the AI needs to be good enough to do a reasonable job of making decisions - not perfect decisions just reasonable ones.
plaguepenguin Jun 16, 2024 @ 11:23am 
Originally posted by PantherDave:
You are right, you can't ignore science and culture etc as they all give your civ benefits direct and indirect for winning a domination victory not to mention any of the other victory types. I'm advocating that the AI should scale these back, not eliminate them, when the sole victory mode is domination.
The game's programming already makes accommodations, changes the AI civs' behavior, in the end game that is defined by another civ getting close to one of at least some of the victory types. If you get up to 16 diplo VPs, all the AI start voting against you, pretty much all-in, and at every opportunity. Get to the point where the system starts projecting how many turns until you win a culture victory,and they stop selling you great works.

Well, in those two cases there is a easily defined set of parameters in the overall game state that can be used to trigger a change to different AI behaviors that unequivocally meet the AIs' need to keep you from winning.

What's the game state that would prompt ignoring all the etceteras to focus on producing units to the exclusion of all else? The only relatively hard input factor to the decision to stop building more campuses and doing more research grants, would be that the AI has unlocked the last GDR improvement. For one thing, that's way late. The game is almost always already effectively won or hopelessly lost by then. And even if you and the AI find yourselves in one of those one-in-a-million games where it's still on a knife's edge after you both have unlocked fully promoted GDRs, there's still possibly all sorts of economic/development game considerations that might be at least as important as the pure wargame, even at this late point in the game. Who's got, and can retain control of,more uranium? How important are naval units at securing uranium supplies? What other units might be more or less needful in neutralizing or bypassing the enemy GDRs? What other civs than your main opponent can and should be invaded, to secure uranium, aluminum, or just more productive capacity? What other civs help you more by remaining allies or at least trading partners?

That's just the simplest case, the rare end-game case in which the game is still at all close. For all games, the only victory type that should influence your decisions, at all, until the mid-game at the earliest, is religious victory. For that one victory type only, you have to get a religion, and the competition for the limited number of religions means you can't count on getting your religion unless you act very early and very aggressively to that end. Other than that, before the mid-game at the earliest, every victory type dictates that you expand as much as possible as your only priority. A consequence of that is that you move up the tech and (less urgently) the civics tree, because moving up the trees unlocks every good thing in the game, from more productive tiles to mor distircts and their buildings, to better units,to better policy cards, etcetera, etecetera.

Early conquest is a wonderful help for any type of victory, and not especially for domination, because it is one of the modes of expansion. The fact that only domination victory is enabled should not, even a little bit, change what the AI should be doing,until we reach that endgame state as discussed above. Having the AI prioritize building units before the end-game would only make it easier for humans to beat the AI. Military units are only helpful to winning if produced just when they are needed to conquer another civ, or prevent conquest by another civ. Just exactly when x number of y unit types will make it possible to get a conquest done in z turns, before your victim can respond with an effective defense, is a constantly moving target as the game progresses.

There isn't even any one game state in the late game you can specify for the switch in the program away from the eteceteras to spamming units. The human player actually has to be attentive to the possibility of such game states all through the game, because they arise many times during the game, but each time the opportunity passes if not seized in time. At lower difficulty it is easier to go for a very early conquest (conquest before walls), or an early conquest (before crossbows), but you don't need to, because humans are better at economic.development strategy, and if the AI is not given a handicap, you can count on getting ahead in tech and production by the Medieval or Renaissance era, then building an army on the lines you advocate, something that can predictably and safely deal with all defenses. Higher difficulty removes that safe play, because however smarter you are at development, you reach a point by Deity at which you can't stay ahead of the AI by superior development strategy alone, and you have no choice but to risk conquest as early as that's not clearly suicidal. You have to be attentive and open to bringing in all sorts of side-hustles to succeed at this, all sorts of mechanics in the game that aren't core.

No doubt you can write a program that lets an AI do a reasonable job of simulating actual decision-making based on the enemy's intentions and capabilities within a space that only has one dimension of strategy. I can see a pure wargame making that possible. As a pure wargame, Civ 6's AI doesn't do a horrible job, at least if you keep the level down to pure wargame and a limited space. It's competent at counter-punching within one theater of war, and I learned the "tactics" to use in this game from the AI when I was just starting out. It gets worse and worse the wider the sphere. Just spatially, it can't manage allocating forces between different theaters. It can't assess the level of risk of an actual invasion presented by all the civs that have declared war on it (as opposed to the many purely notional wars the AI civs often declare on their own, or that you can get them to join in on). Clausewitzian means and ends in deciding to go to war? Forget about it. The idea that the AI could analyze the total game state to the point of being able to identify when to spam units vs when to continue development to get better and more units in the future -- hopeless. Okay, totally hopeless until the end-game,and even then pretty marginal. I think you have to keep intentions and capabilities really limited and one-dimensional for AI at present to simulate humans' use of strategy,at least in a very open-ended game.

Of course I might be wrong. i will try out some of the games in the Command Ops series. i started out in gaming as a 6 year-old on the 1961 version of Avalon Hill's Gettysburg, and pure wargames are what I played for a long time, a long time ago. We didn't have AI at all back then, of course, just older brothers until at least high school and you could find other weirdos outside your family who liked wargames. I'll see how your AI does compared to my older brothers.

As a final thought, to really get this wide open game to cone down to only playing as a pure wargame, you have to to do much more radical surgery than just shutting down all victory types except domination. Take a look at the War Machine scenario. It only covers 40 turns (each one a week if I recall), cuts out all the etcetera systems except science, but then only has 6 researchable techs, all of which only do buffs rather than new units (aside from one that unlocks biplanes). You win by capturing or defending Paris. Sadly, the devs made it MP only, no doubt because they would have had to write an entirely new program for the AI to allow single player. Never having done any modding, I don't know if it's possible for a modder to do the AI rewrite, but I would definitely be interested in playing the scenario if anyone ever undertook that task. I suspect that this AI for War Machine would look a lot like your above suggestions for offense and defense,which seem to be quite sound for a version of Civ that tossed out everything but its wargame dimension.

I just don't think that any version of Civ that preserved its many dimensions could allow a program to simulate at all well strategic analysis of intentions and capabilities. The full game makes the whole competitor civ the object of that analysis, not just enemy units. If it's just a wargame, and it's just the enemy units the program has to come up with a response to, that's one thing, but if its units are just one manifestation of a civ's total threat package, I don't see it. Could the AI be tweaked to counterpunch better? Sure. But I don't see it made able to respond decisively better to the totality of the threat a rival civ poses. You have to really simplify the threat by removing all the mechanics except just the wargame to come up with a tweak that will improve its chances dramatically, but that simplified game is not this game
Last edited by plaguepenguin; Jun 17, 2024 @ 8:02am
Forcedge Jun 16, 2024 @ 2:14pm 
jesus christ dude...18k hours? Seek help you are pissing your life away
PantherDave Jun 17, 2024 @ 7:12pm 
Originally posted by Forcedge:
jesus christ dude...18k hours? Seek help you are pissing your life away
It's not that bad. I often have Civ open while I'm programming. I switch to it while I'm doping a compile. The number of our recorded by Civ is just if it is open, not that someone is actually playing it.
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Date Posted: Jun 14, 2024 @ 6:45pm
Posts: 8