So, the word "Ukraine" is now stealth banned in the forum?

[craig234]

There's bad moderation, and there's bad moderation. Every post I saw with the word Ukraine seems to be deleted, without any announcement I've seen.

[robert.steven.marshall]

Harris の投稿を引用：

robert.steven.marshall の投稿を引用：

You just choose to ignore valid criticism.

I can't perceive "you have 3k hours on Skyrim" as valid criticism, sorry. And russian bots are incapable of anything beyond that. At best, that's criticism of me as a human - not what the thread is about.

robert.steven.marshall の投稿を引用：

You are literally inventing demand for Ukraine to be included that has never existed.

Wrong. If you've paid attention - I am only replying to threads made by others. I think I only made 1 (one) thread to do with Ukraine on this forums over the course of forever.

Nothing shows interest/demand better than the mods people create. So thanks for reinforcing my argument.

robert.steven.marshall の投稿を引用：

The fact you only respond to something you think can work with means you should abandon your argument.

I can't really respond to comments like "you're pro-Ukraine, so you must be Ukrainian nationalist". That's silly bait I'm not falling for.

robert.steven.marshall の投稿を引用：

you trying to take the moral high-ground while being one of the people directly responsible

"You're a bad person so your opinion is irrelevant" - no, it doesn't work like that, sorry. Might blame me for assassination of Kennedy and Holocaust while you're at it.

You can't press "skip" every time anyone makes a valid point and then focus on the other bits. "I can't formulate an argument"= My argument is not sound.

Myself and others have repeatedly told you personally numerous reasons why your "argument" is nonsense. Here are some of the highlights:

a) The best historical reasons for inclusion are as a separate Civ called Rus as per one of the mods of Ukraine. That Civ is not particularly well known globally nor particularly historically important even at that time. It's the equivalent of me demanding the inclusion of a Civ called El Algar because I think it would be interesting. Except that El Algar would be interesting.

b) The demand for Ukraine to be included is almost all from this year and is based on current world events. It is also still very light demand less than numerous other Civs. You keep inventing extra demand in the face of apathy. Previous to 2022 there were 100s of mod leaders and civs and most of these packs didn't include Ukraine. "A mod I didn't know exists so there is a ton of demand" is a dumb argument. How many people have even played as those? You clearly haven't so even you weren't interested enough. There are a ton of mods of Russian leaders so I guess you really really want Stalin in the game too?

c) Every single thread about Ukraine has the majority of people saying basically, sure if you want to make a mod but no it isn't an obvious choice. That threads exist doesn't prove your point. There are threads about all kinds of nations and most of those threads go back to before 2022.

For example: https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/pab2cu/new_leaders_for_civ_vii_who_do_you_want_to_see/
Here's a thread with 689 comments about which Civs and leaders people want to see, many name 5 or 6 interesting Civs (first one I found at random). 2 people said Ukraine and one of those is because their wife is Ukrainian. If the basis for including Ukraine is demand then it's on equal par with Saddam Hussein Iraq.

d) The game is already regularly criticized for having too many samey European Civs. If people want better representation then it would be of other parts of the world. Ever played on a world true start map?

e) There's no interesting gameplay reason to include Ukraine. The only reason to play them is to fight Russia.

f) Saying "we don't want anything to do with Russia" and playing as Russia is valid criticism because it shows that what you said is false. You are disingenuous and virtue signalling but with cognitive dissonance to simultaneously be a nationalist in wartime. You are not objective and so your true arguments can be dismissed.

g) Taking the moral high ground while playing games that are about touching yourself is valid criticism. You can't look down on everyone else and dismiss their opinion as "Russian bots" because you disagree with them. You can't say "Civ must do this" but then ignore the "lack of" Ukrainian representation elsewhere. I was literally just giving you a taste of your own medicine and then you moaned.

h) Saying "well they included x so why not y" is just not how games development works. They are most likely working off of the strategy to make them the most money which is usually again linked to demand. The logical response is create your own mod or download an existing one.

Basically you keep trying to present an objective argument as a thin veil for why you actually think Ukraine should be in the game. People make valid criticisms of that argument and there's a general apathy towards the idea of Ukraine as a Civ based on its actual historical, cultural and gameplay credentials which is all that matters. You get upset that most people don't hold your view and the masks slips and you start calling everyone Russian bots. Then people get fed up of your nonsense, virtue signalling, hypocrisy and moral high ground and take you down a peg. Even when clearly faced with the inability to respond you can't change your mind.

Bear in mind you are an English-speaking sub where the overwhelming majority of people are essentially Pro-Ukraine and you're calling everyone Russian bots. Separate out the war and the game. You aren't winning the war by including Ukraine in the game. Your true reasons for wanting Ukraine in the game are ones that have zero validity in a videogame.

[robert.steven.marshall]

Catalytic の投稿を引用：

Harris の投稿を引用：

I've no idea how to formulate a response to this posts that would be in line with Steam guidelines, so I'm just gonna acknowledge them.

As I read through your responses, you have mentioned this specific characterization 3 separate times, and each time, have refused to actually address it. I called you a Ukrainian nationalist because you told me that you were in your posts.

Harris の投稿を引用：

Ukraine though - we might be a smaller country, but I've been on Steam for 10 years, buying my games fair&square, so there's that.

Indeed, I'm seeing more and more "add Ukrainian" threads in various games' forums, goes to show there's actually a lot of Ukrainian gamers, that we exist and would like to be heard. (emphasis mine)

From your own words, you're identifying as Ukrainian.

Harris の投稿を引用：

Even if the call for Ukrainian is based mostly on our desire to have nothing to do with russia in any way, shape or form.

And it's crystal clear from your very next sentence that you support an independent Ukrainian nation that has nothing whatsoever to do with Russia. You're a nationalist, who is Ukrainian... a Ukrainian nationalist. Nothing about that characterization is unfair or inaccurate based on your own words and your own repeated demonstrations of that viewpoint in this thread.

We could have a discussion about whether that's a good thing or not on a different forum where we're free to talk politics, but we can't discuss that here. I didn't criticize you for that your position. I only said that this fact biases your recommendation about a new civ, which is perfectly fair. My status as an American citizen biases my own perception about the inclusion of the US in various games.

So, back to the question that we can discuss here: how do we solve your problem? What exactly would you like to see in a Ukrainian civ if it were added? How would you build it? How would it play such that it is interesting, fun, and different from the 60+ other options in the game already? Who would be the leader? What unique ability would they have? Unique buildings? Unique units? Tile improvements? It is much easier to discuss a suggestion if you actually provide some detail about what you want.

(edit: muh speling iz gud)

They went through the possible options for an actual Civ on a previous sub and it was greeted by a lukewarm reaction and was largely about a Civ that wasn't actually called Ukraine. Any valid criticism of that Civ they just outright ignored. They also got upset when people basically said, OK cool, go make a mod.

[Harris]

Catalytic の投稿を引用：

And it's crystal clear from your very next sentence that you support an independent Ukrainian nation that has nothing whatsoever to do with Russia. You're a nationalist, who is Ukrainian... a Ukrainian nationalist. Nothing about that characterization is unfair or inaccurate based on your own words and your own repeated demonstrations of that viewpoint in this thread.

The problem is not the thing itself, but what it's called and how it's perceived. That's the first thing Google gives you - "identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations." Similar: chauvinism, jingoism, flag-waving, ethnocentrism

While there's nothing wrong with supporting own nation, as you can see even internationally the term is viewed with a certain negative connotation. Chauvinism or enthnocetrism got nothing to do with Ukraine - we have always peacefully and happily coexisted with a large number of ethnicities living in the country. And we certainly have never waged an aggressive war on anyone.

This whole "Ukrainian nationalist" thingy is in fact a slur, something invented during soviet era to brand any Ukrainian wishing for independence. Using it interchangeably with "nazi" - as russia does to this day - is a huge replacement of notions, aimed at dismissing the very idea Ukraine can have its own language, culture or statehood. So when you hear Ukraine has/had a "nazi problem" - it simply means Ukraine doesn't want to go back to being a part of russia.

Bottom line - when someone tells me I'm a "Ukrainian nationalist" it's a dead giveaway I'm talking to a russian bot.

Catalytic の投稿を引用：

So, back to the question that we can discuss here: how do we solve your problem? What exactly would you like to see in a Ukrainian civ if it were added? How would you build it? How would it play such that it is interesting, fun, and different from the 60+ other options in the game already? Who would be the leader? What unique ability would they have? Unique buildings? Unique units? Tile improvements? It is much easier to discuss a suggestion if you actually provide some detail about what you want.

Yeah, that's a sound idea. Makes me really wish you started your contributions to the thread with that. Or - no offense - just moved on if you can't really say that much about all those things you just brought up.

But it's like the others said - it's not the first nor the last Ukraine thread, and this was already discussed, and I indeed myself contributed to that. There would be no need to reiterate - if a community manager or game designer wants to search the forums for some ideas on what kind of Ukraine to create as a civ, those are already there.

People were just wondering about the "shadow banning Ukraine" policy and I shared my insights, having had some previous interactions with the mods here. And then it escalated quickly, and here we are.

[parent child bowl]

Harris の投稿を引用：

This whole "Ukrainian nationalist" thingy is in fact a slur, something invented during soviet era to brand any Ukrainian wishing for independence. Using it interchangeably with "nazi" - as russia does to this day - is a huge replacement of notions, aimed at dismissing the very idea Ukraine can have its own language, culture or statehood. So when you hear Ukraine has/had a "nazi problem" - it simply means Ukraine doesn't want to go back to being a part of russia.

Yeah, yeah and the Svoboda consists of 100% russians loyal to Russia.

Yes, the russian propaganda is dog poop, but you aren't doing your country a favor by telling people here that it doesn't have racists and chauvinists.

[Aachen]

“.... and then it escalated quickly ....”

As these topics tend to do.

[robert.steven.marshall]

Harris の投稿を引用：

Catalytic の投稿を引用：

And it's crystal clear from your very next sentence that you support an independent Ukrainian nation that has nothing whatsoever to do with Russia. You're a nationalist, who is Ukrainian... a Ukrainian nationalist. Nothing about that characterization is unfair or inaccurate based on your own words and your own repeated demonstrations of that viewpoint in this thread.

The problem is not the thing itself, but what it's called and how it's perceived. That's the first thing Google gives you - "identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations." Similar: chauvinism, jingoism, flag-waving, ethnocentrism

While there's nothing wrong with supporting own nation, as you can see even internationally the term is viewed with a certain negative connotation. Chauvinism or enthnocetrism got nothing to do with Ukraine - we have always peacefully and happily coexisted with a large number of ethnicities living in the country. And we certainly have never waged an aggressive war on anyone.

This whole "Ukrainian nationalist" thingy is in fact a slur, something invented during soviet era to brand any Ukrainian wishing for independence. Using it interchangeably with "nazi" - as russia does to this day - is a huge replacement of notions, aimed at dismissing the very idea Ukraine can have its own language, culture or statehood. So when you hear Ukraine has/had a "nazi problem" - it simply means Ukraine doesn't want to go back to being a part of russia.

Bottom line - when someone tells me I'm a "Ukrainian nationalist" it's a dead giveaway I'm talking to a russian bot.

Catalytic の投稿を引用：

So, back to the question that we can discuss here: how do we solve your problem? What exactly would you like to see in a Ukrainian civ if it were added? How would you build it? How would it play such that it is interesting, fun, and different from the 60+ other options in the game already? Who would be the leader? What unique ability would they have? Unique buildings? Unique units? Tile improvements? It is much easier to discuss a suggestion if you actually provide some detail about what you want.

Yeah, that's a sound idea. Makes me really wish you started your contributions to the thread with that. Or - no offense - just moved on if you can't really say that much about all those things you just brought up.

But it's like the others said - it's not the first nor the last Ukraine thread, and this was already discussed, and I indeed myself contributed to that. There would be no need to reiterate - if a community manager or game designer wants to search the forums for some ideas on what kind of Ukraine to create as a civ, those are already there.

People were just wondering about the "shadow banning Ukraine" policy and I shared my insights, having had some previous interactions with the mods here. And then it escalated quickly, and here we are.

Step one: Sidesteps all valid criticism

Step two: Calls people Russian bots with 0 basis

Step three: Claims victimhood

Rinse and Repeat.

This is precisely why these discussions on Ukraine are impossible. You are completely blinded by nationalism. It isn't a slur. It is an accurate description of your inability to be objective. It is literally based on your own words.

Stop pontificating.

Ukraine is not a utopia. It clearly does have issues with chauvinism and racism like any other country and more than in many other developed nations. If you want an example of chauvinism just look at your own games library. -no offense-

[Harris]

robert.steven.marshall の投稿を引用：

This is precisely why these discussions on Ukraine are impossible. You are completely blinded by nationalism. It isn't a slur. It is an accurate description of your inability to be objective. It is literally based on your own words.

Coming back to the definition of "to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations", I can't see how my points make me a nationalist.

I suggest adding Ukraine to Civ.
I don't suggest taking out russia from Civ and replace it with Ukraine.
I also don't suggest delaying Leader Pass and making Ukraine instead, or anything.

Therefore, I can't see what your wild assumption is based on, other than prejudice that Ukrainian = nationalist, cultivated for years by russian propaganda and its affiliated media.

But the real reason why discussions on Ukraine are impossible - there's barely anybody here to even hold such discussions with. To have a fruitful discussion, two prerequisites must be met:

1) being constructive - willing to discuss how could Ukraine be best implemented in a Civ game instead of dismissing the idea as "Ukraine is part of russia", "there's a mod for that", and not to forget "you are an evil Ukrainian nationalist who plays adult visual novels". Of course, we can't really expect a russian bot to be constructive, nor someone brainwashed by russian propaganda, because whether they are getting paid for it or are doing it out of free will - they are the bad faith actors.

2) having at least basic knowledge about Ukraine - if one doesn't know about Ukraine more than "it's a country where Chernobyl hit", one won't be able to contribute anything meaningful. A lot of people recognize that, and move on.

This is why all the Ukraine threads are doomed to be a ridiculous flame war between a few Ukrainians that got the ability to visit this forums this days, and a russian bot farm tasked with baiting and derailing.

[Lu Bu]

Highly doubt Ukraine will get added, like literally no one cared before the war and now that there's one making Ukraine an actual civ would be viewed like 2k trying to profit off the war

[Catalytic]

Harris の投稿を引用：

Bottom line - when someone tells me I'm a "Ukrainian nationalist" it's a dead giveaway I'm talking to a russian bot.

I can't have a productive discussion with someone who is just looking for excuse to be offended. You're a Ukrainian nationalist and I explained what I meant by the term. I'm old enough now to have learned what the term meant before globalism became popular and nationalism became a slur. It's not a slur. It's a synonym of patriotism. I explained what I meant and showed how your own words fit that definition. You ignored it and then called me a Russian bot... again... even after I told you I'm an American citizen. It's tiresome to have someone twist my words, deliberately be obtuse, and then resort to name-calling. If you're looking for sympathy for your country and your cause, this is a really terrible way to go about it, particularly when a large part of your audience here is the people who are funding your country's existence for the time being.

I have twice tried to redirect this conversation to something that would be reasonably in line with forum rules and reasonably focused on the game. You're not interested in that kind of constructive discussion. You only seem to want to reply to the drama comments with more drama of your own.

This is why my very first reply stated that all of these topics turn into ____ shows. And this one has as well, thanks in no small part to your contributions. This topic has nothing to do with Civ 6 anymore, so I won't be replying further. Feel free to lob another round of insults on the way out and prove my point yet again.

[robert.steven.marshall]

Harris の投稿を引用：

robert.steven.marshall の投稿を引用：

This is precisely why these discussions on Ukraine are impossible. You are completely blinded by nationalism. It isn't a slur. It is an accurate description of your inability to be objective. It is literally based on your own words.

Coming back to the definition of "to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations", I can't see how my points make me a nationalist.

I suggest adding Ukraine to Civ.
I don't suggest taking out russia from Civ and replace it with Ukraine.
I also don't suggest delaying Leader Pass and making Ukraine instead, or anything.

Therefore, I can't see what your wild assumption is based on, other than prejudice that Ukrainian = nationalist, cultivated for years by russian propaganda and its affiliated media.

But the real reason why discussions on Ukraine are impossible - there's barely anybody here to even hold such discussions with. To have a fruitful discussion, two prerequisites must be met:

1) being constructive - willing to discuss how could Ukraine be best implemented in a Civ game instead of dismissing the idea as "Ukraine is part of russia", "there's a mod for that", and not to forget "you are an evil Ukrainian nationalist who plays adult visual novels". Of course, we can't really expect a russian bot to be constructive, nor someone brainwashed by russian propaganda, because whether they are getting paid for it or are doing it out of free will - they are the bad faith actors.

2) having at least basic knowledge about Ukraine - if one doesn't know about Ukraine more than "it's a country where Chernobyl hit", one won't be able to contribute anything meaningful. A lot of people recognize that, and move on.

This is why all the Ukraine threads are doomed to be a ridiculous flame war between a few Ukrainians that got the ability to visit this forums this days, and a russian bot farm tasked with baiting and derailing.

You are literally talking to Westerners who get 0 Russian propaganda and overwhelmingly support Ukraine and then calling them Russian bots. Myself and others have repeatedly supplied numerous reasons why Ukraine is not a popular choice as a Civ. You have zero response except RuSsIaN bOtS.

1: You are the only person who is not constructive. Every constructive criticism has been completely ignored by you. You are arguing solely in bad faith and refuse to actually present any argument because you are literally incapable of doing so. You have zero objectivity.

2: You also have zero evidence that people don't have sufficient knowledge of Ukraine. We are not talking about Tajikistan or Vanuatu. But even if your argument is that no one has even heard of Ukraine then then it is only yet another reason not to include them. Every time you wander off on your high horse into the realms of hyperbole you give away the game and show that you recognize that there is little interest in adding Ukraine.

Honestly you sound more like a Russian bot trying to turn people against Ukraine than anyone else here. The majority of your audience lives in countries that have received refugees, raised money, flown the Ukraine flag proudly and mocked Putin for the past 30 years.

And yes I'll keep mocking you for trying and failing to take the moral/intellectual high ground while pouring hours into "games" that are just for sad pathetic guys to touch themselves to. Because when I supply you with numerous reasons why your "argument" has no substance then you simultaneously claim no one is capable of discussing the issue with you while throwing your toys out the pram like a baby.

[Harris]

Catalytic の投稿を引用：

You're a Ukrainian nationalist and I explained what I meant by the term. I'm old enough now to have learned what the term meant before globalism became popular and nationalism became a slur. It's not a slur. It's a synonym of patriotism.

And I explained to you why "Ukrainian nationalist" is nothing more than a label and can come across as offensive to us. You could have worded it in many ways that would be miles better than what you chose to. You could say "hey, I can see you're really a patriot of your country, however I personally don't believe there's much demand for Ukraine / it wouldn't be popular". And I would respect that.

Catalytic の投稿を引用：

You're not interested in that kind of constructive discussion. You only seem to want to reply to the drama comments with more drama of your own.

The drama's in the thread's name, so honestly, what did you expect? Or did I have to reiterate all my thoughts on how it could look like as a civ - something I literally did in another thread only a short while ago - only to end up shouting at a wall because there's clearly nobody to have such a discussion here.

Catalytic の投稿を引用：

I can't have a productive discussion with someone who is just looking for excuse to be offended.

That's an awfully cherrypicking way of looking at things. Go back to the first page and you will see that about every single reply to what I wrote was ad hominem.

Oh, why aren't you serving?
Oh, why do you have 3k hours on Skyrim?
Oh, why are you playing adult visual novels you mysoginist?
Oh, why did you play as russia in Victoria 3?

If you believe any of those are relevant arguments, if you think any of those got anything to do with fostering a productive discussion, and if you indeed consider my response was entirely uncalled for... then yeah, you're right, we should not interact further. Nothing worthwhile would come out of it. Thank you for your time.

robert.steven.marshall の投稿を引用：

The majority of your audience lives in countries that have received refugees, raised money, flown the Ukraine flag proudly and mocked Putin for the past 30 years.

Alright, you guys support us. You do your part - pay in money, while we pay in blood. Awesome! Now hear me out.

For several centuries Ukraine was part of russian empire - with its language, history and culture suppressed or appropriated. Then for almost another century it was part of soviet union - again, being molded into "soviet people". Our way of life existed underground, in the countryside, or conforming to the regime to survive.

Since 1991, we've been slowly gaining back our ground. To better realize the pacing, by 2010 our history was still pretty much in line with soviet one, just stressing Ukraine's impactful role in the states it was a part of. In 2014, it all changed. We realized that the only way is to distance ourselves from russia, else we'll be perceived as "one people" and our historical ties leveraged as grounds for annexation. We are fighting the informational war as much as a conventional one.

So, yes, you're right - there is no demand for Ukraine in the same way there is demand for a reskin of Victoria or 3 leaders of China. But we are not to blame for that. And we should be doing everything to change that.

Right now, Ukraine is not there in Civ 6 as a separate entity, even as some form of a city-state. Moreover, Lavras let alone cossacks are wrongly attributed to russian civ. That weird appropriation only ties into the russian narrative that Ukraine never existed outside of being a colony.

So much like we need your support with money, or anti-aircraft systems, we need your support on historical and cultural fronts. If you dismiss Ukraine because "russia exists" - you are helping the enemy. And if you are helping the enemy - you can at least perfectly understand the attitude that might come across as hostile.

robert.steven.marshall の投稿を引用：

And yes I'll keep mocking you for trying and failing to take the moral/intellectual high ground while pouring hours into "games" that are just for sad pathetic guys to touch themselves to.

You know, back in late February when the orcs were doing their "3-day rush" for Kyiv, I was playing Being a ♥♥♥. It was engaging. Probably helped me not to go insane over all the sirens, explosions and several hours bread lines. This days a visual novel can be like a good book, and it likewise can explore adult themes. Nothing wrong with that. Now, it's not like I'm saying it's pathetic and insensitive of you to judge me, but.. actually, that's exactly the case! Be better.

[robert.steven.marshall]

Harris の投稿を引用：

Catalytic の投稿を引用：

I can't have a productive discussion with someone who is just looking for excuse to be offended. You're a Ukrainian nationalist and I explained what I meant by the term. I'm old enough now to have learned what the term meant before globalism became popular and nationalism became a slur. It's not a slur. It's a synonym of patriotism.

And I explained to you why "Ukrainian nationalist" is nothing more than a label and can come across as offensive to us. You could have worded it in many ways that would be miles better than what you chose to. You could say "hey, I can see you're really a patriot of your country, however I personally don't believe there's much demand for Ukraine / it wouldn't be popular". And I would respect that.

Catalytic の投稿を引用：

You're not interested in that kind of constructive discussion. You only seem to want to reply to the drama comments with more drama of your own.

The drama's in the thread's name, so honestly, what did you expect? Or did I have to reiterate all my thoughts on how it could look like as a civ - something I literally did in another thread only a short while ago - only to end up shouting at a wall because there's clearly nobody to have such a discussion here.

Catalytic の投稿を引用：

I can't have a productive discussion with someone who is just looking for excuse to be offended.

That's an awfully cherrypicking way of looking at things. Go back to the first page and you will see that about every single reply to what I wrote was ad hominem.

Oh, why aren't you serving?
Oh, why do you have 3k hours on Skyrim?
Oh, why are you playing adult visual novels you mysoginist?
Oh, why did you play as russia in Victoria 3?

If you believe any of those are relevant arguments, if you think any of those got anything to do with fostering a productive discussion, and if you indeed consider my response was entirely uncalled for... then yeah, you're right, we should not interact further. Nothing worthwhile would come out of it. Thank you for your time.

robert.steven.marshall の投稿を引用：

The majority of your audience lives in countries that have received refugees, raised money, flown the Ukraine flag proudly and mocked Putin for the past 30 years.

Alright, you guys support us. You do your part - pay in money, while we pay in blood. Awesome! Now hear me out.

For several centuries Ukraine was part of russian empire - with its language, history and culture suppressed or appropriated. Then for almost another century it was part of soviet union - again, being molded into "soviet people". Our way of life existed underground, in the countryside, or conforming to the regime to survive.

Since 1991, we've been slowly gaining back our ground. To better realize the pacing, by 2010 our history was still pretty much in line with soviet one, just stressing Ukraine's impactful role in the states it was a part of. In 2014, it all changed. We realized that the only way is to distance ourselves from russia, else we'll be perceived as "one people" and our historical ties leveraged as grounds for annexation. We are fighting the informational war as much as a conventional one.

So, yes, you're right - there is no demand for Ukraine in the same way there is demand for a reskin of Victoria or 3 leaders of China. But we are not to blame for that. And we should be doing everything to change that.

Right now, Ukraine is not there in Civ 6 as a separate entity, even as some form of a city-state. Moreover, Lavras let alone cossacks are wrongly attributed to russian civ. That weird appropriation only ties into the russian narrative that Ukraine never existed outside of being a colony.

So much like we need your support with money, or anti-aircraft systems, we need your support on historical and cultural fronts. If you dismiss Ukraine because "russia exists" - you are helping the enemy. And if you are helping the enemy - you can at least perfectly understand the attitude that might come across as hostile.

robert.steven.marshall の投稿を引用：

And yes I'll keep mocking you for trying and failing to take the moral/intellectual high ground while pouring hours into "games" that are just for sad pathetic guys to touch themselves to.

You know, back in late February when the orcs were doing their "3-day rush" for Kyiv, I was playing Being a ♥♥♥. It was engaging. Probably helped me not to go insane over all the sirens, explosions and several hours bread lines. This days a visual novel can be like a good book, and it likewise can explore adult themes. Nothing wrong with that. Now, it's not like I'm saying it's pathetic and insensitive of you to judge me, but.. actually, that's exactly the case! Be better.

I can't believe you have the gall to say other people are cherrypicking while you are the only person doing it. The comments on you as a person point out your clear hypocrisy and obviously not objective nationalist views. They are mostly in direct response to things you have said but you're separating the context to continue to be disingenuous. You've now all but admitted that your previous claims were untrue.

You've done a fantastic job of explaining why Ukraine shouldn't be included in Civ. Better than anyone else has. As you explained, we are talking about a Civ that we are tracing back to 1991 or even 2010 or 2014 and otherwise was intricately linked to Russia. You're claiming that Lavras and Cossacks are exclusively Ukrainian which is just nonsense. Lying about history is not winning the war.

Your only reasons for including it are current world events. That is no basis for the inclusion of any Civ.

We all get that you're delusionally thinking that the inclusion of a Ukrainian Civ will win the war. It won't. No one needs persuading that Ukraine is a sovereign nation that should exist independently. You frankly come across as ungrateful and if anyone is fighting on the side of the enemy it is you. This is the type of nonsense that makes people lose patience and withdraw support.

And yes there are problems with those games which is why it is hypocritical to make an argument based on morals or ethics. You didn't pour hundreds of hours into the various ones you own just in February. You are talking about games that are just about looking at big breasts and you claimed there was no chauvinism in Ukraine. You are still literally trying to take the moral high ground while talking about a game called "Being a ♥♥♥". The irony is astounding. You weren't reading a literary classic. And "I have spent the war touching myself" is not some gotcha moment.

[Harris]

Okay, the amount of bs to digest is becoming unbearable. I have literally zero desire to continue engaging with people who've been using every single word I posted in this thread so far, including what I have on my profile, in my reviews and elsewhere to bait, ridicule, apply labels and launch personal attacks. The greatest irony is that comes from people who alledgedly support Ukraine.

Happy New Year everybody.

[parent child bowl]

Harris の投稿を引用：

The greatest irony is that comes from people who alledgedly support Ukraine.

I've got news for you. You are not Ukraine.

Really weird how you're trying to spin this into "If you don't support me, you don't support Ukraine.".

[colostmy4]

It seems to me this post got too political some time ago and should have been neutered.