Arabian Capital

[Shin]

Cairo seemed odd to me, I know it's not the capital of Egypt (the Egypt in game is ancient) but I thought Mecca would have been a better choice... Or am I not understanding something? Is Cairo the heart of Arabia?

[Perfectibilist]

Saladin founded the Ayuubid dynasty, which had its capital at Cairo.

[EdoKun]

I think it's because Saladin was Sultan of Egypt. I think if there wuold be another arabian leader, the capital would be changed accordingly, like with Greece, where it will be Athens with Pericles and Sparta with Gorgo

[Kyle Reese]

Originally posted by Shin (Nick):

Cairo seemed odd to me, I know it's not the capital of Ehypt (the Egpyt in game is ancient) but I thought Mecca would have been a better choice... Or am I not understanding something? Is Cairo the heart of Arabia?

There are always some oddities with Civ when it comes to leaders and the specific nation they supposedly led. In this case, Saladin was the first Sultan of Egypt, which is why Cairo is his captial (He didn't rule from Memphis as the Pharaohs had). He was Kurdish, not Ararbian. Yet, at the same time, his dynasty also ruled over the Arabian Penninsula and Syria. I'm guessing that "Arabian" is being used synonymously as "Muslim"

[Shin]

Thanks for the answers! Makes more sense now.

[ArabPride1987]

Originally posted by Shin:

Cairo seemed odd to me, I know it's not the capital of Egypt (the Egypt in game is ancient) but I thought Mecca would have been a better choice... Or am I not understanding something? Is Cairo the heart of Arabia?

There is nothing "odd" about it. Do you know history? Egypt Has been the hub of the Arab world since the Fatimid Caliphate(before the Ayyubid dynasty) . Medina was only the Hub of the Arab world in the first years of the Islamic conquest but it didn't last for long as the Capital of the Arab and Islamic world. The 3 Major Capitals and Leading powers of the Arab world have always been Cairo, Damascus and Baghdad but ever since the Fatimid caliphate rose to great power in 973 AD, Egypt has been the only Hub or Capital of the Arab world. When I say the word "Capital" I mean in terms of 1- Culturally, 2- Politically and 3 - Militarily. So it wouldn't make any sense to make Mecca the capital of Arabia during Saladin because it would be historically inaccurate because A- Mecca was not the capital of the Arab world at the time of Saladin, Egypt's Cairo was and B - Mecca was never the capital of Arabia, it was Medina during the first Caliphate which is called "the Rashidun Caliphate". Till this day Cairo is the Hub of the Arab world and that is where the Arab league is headquartered. I don't know why Westerners till this day think that Egypt is still some kind of a "pharaoh" country that still speaks "Egyptian" in 2018 lol. It has been an Arab country along side Syria and Iraq for the past 1400 years give or take.

[ArabPride1987]

Originally posted by Kyle Reese:

Originally posted by Shin (Nick):

Cairo seemed odd to me, I know it's not the capital of Ehypt (the Egpyt in game is ancient) but I thought Mecca would have been a better choice... Or am I not understanding something? Is Cairo the heart of Arabia?

There are always some oddities with Civ when it comes to leaders and the specific nation they supposedly led. In this case, Saladin was the first Sultan of Egypt, which is why Cairo is his captial (He didn't rule from Memphis as the Pharaohs had). He was Kurdish, not Ararbian. Yet, at the same time, his dynasty also ruled over the Arabian Penninsula and Syria. I'm guessing that "Arabian" is being used synonymously as "Muslim"

1- Egypt has been an Arab country for the past 1400 years along side Syria and Iraq. It has also been the Hub of the Arab world since the 900s AD during the Fatimid Empire, way before Saladin so it would make sense to have an Islamic and Arab leadership like Saladin to hail from Cairo at that time in history. 2- Saladin was half Kurdish and he married an Arab, spoke Arabic, did not know one word of Kurdish. All his writings were in Arabic, his name is Arabic and he led the Arabs. Also the word Arabian is not used "synonymously as Muslim". Only ignorant people perceive it as such. There are two school of thoughts when it comes to this "Arab" issue, and the 2 are ancient. One school of thought suggests that a person is considered an Arab if he or she is a native speaker of the Arabic language. While the second school of thought suggests that a person is considered Arab genetically. Now that region has intermixed and mingled for the past 1400 years and beyond(even since the Abrahamic times where Abraham, a Chaldean Semitic man, married an Egyptian woman named Hagar who brought Ishmael, the father of the Arabs). So knowing how this region was mixed to hell, the Arabs there have agreed that anyone who's native tongue is Arabic, is automatically considered an Arab. There are no genetically pure Arabs and certainly Saudi Arabia is not pure Arab. The closest to being the purest Arabs are in Yemen. Anyways, the Arabian peninsula didn't rule except for the first years during the Islamic conquest and the Rashidun Caliphate which was the first caliphate After the death of Prophet Mohamed. The Countries that were considered the Hub of the Arab world were always Egypt, Iraq and Syria. The Arabian peninsula had been stagnate since most of the great scientists, leaders and artists migrated to those countries ever since the conquests 1400 years ago to advance the Arab culture. All that was left over in the Arabian peninsula was nothing but tribalism up until the discovery of oil in the Arabian peninsula in the 1930s which led to the prosperity of Saudi Arabia. Also, I strongly recommend to read what I have posted in regards to Shin's question. I know this is a 2 year old discussion by the way but felt that I had to comment.

[Kyle Reese]

Originally posted by theegyptianone2:

Originally posted by Kyle Reese:

There are always some oddities with Civ when it comes to leaders and the specific nation they supposedly led. In this case, Saladin was the first Sultan of Egypt, which is why Cairo is his captial (He didn't rule from Memphis as the Pharaohs had). He was Kurdish, not Ararbian. Yet, at the same time, his dynasty also ruled over the Arabian Penninsula and Syria. I'm guessing that "Arabian" is being used synonymously as "Muslim"

Saladin was half Kurdish and he married an Arab, spoke Arabic, did not know one word of Kurdish. All his writings were in Arabic, his name is Arabic and he led the Arabs. Also the word Arabian is not used "synonymously as Muslim". Only ignorant people perceive it as such. There are two school of thoughts when it comes to this "Arab" issue, and the 2 are ancient. One school of thought suggests that a person is considered an Arab if he or she is a native speaker of the Arabic language. While the second school of thought suggests that a person is considered Arab genetically. Now that region has intermixed and mingled for the past 1400 years and beyond(even since the Abrahamic times where Abraham, a Chaldean Semitic man, married an Egyptian woman named Hagar who brought Ishmael, the father of the Arabs). So knowing how this region was mixed to hell, the Arabs there have agreed that anyone who's native tongue is Arabic, is automatically considered an Arab. There are no genetically pure Arabs and certainly Saudi Arabia is not pure Arab. The closest to being the purest Arabs are in Yemen. Also I strongly recommend to read what I have posted in regards to Shin's question. I know this is a 2 year old discussion by the way but felt that I had to comment.

-Firstly, the orginial question is in the context of the game universe where in most civ games Mecca was the capital of the Arabian civilization. The questioner litterally asked why this was different here, so I really have no idea why you opted for such a snarky response beyond the fact you could, when he/she was looking for an answer. Surely, this video game company is capable of making bad choices so it's not beyond the pale to think this was a mistake and ask about it.

-"Half Kurdish" is a new one. That's the appropriation of history at work. You don't see Arabs claiming Kurds generally, so it must be a product of his greatness. In his own life and in every account therrafter he is noted as a Kurd. There's not a book I know of that ever considered him an Arab. What does marrying an Arab have to do with being an Arab? And the Umayyad spoke Greek; they were still ethnically Arabs.

-Given Saladin's bonuses in the game, which are all connected to religion, it is clear that the game developers did not have Cairo on their mind when designing the Arabian civilization. It's pretty obvious that the Arab agenda in the game, is more rooted in Islamic history coming out of the Arabian pennisula than in Egyptian history. Arabian and Egyptian histories are not synonymous. Thus choosing a capital outside of Arabia for the Arabian civilization is a bit unusual; it's more to do with the leader they wanted in the game than history.

[Kyle Reese]

Originally posted by theegyptianone2:

Originally posted by Kyle Reese:

There are always some oddities with Civ when it comes to leaders and the specific nation they supposedly led. In this case, Saladin was the first Sultan of Egypt, which is why Cairo is his captial (He didn't rule from Memphis as the Pharaohs had). He was Kurdish, not Ararbian. Yet, at the same time, his dynasty also ruled over the Arabian Penninsula and Syria. I'm guessing that "Arabian" is being used synonymously as "Muslim"

1- Egypt has been an Arab country for the past 1400 years along side Syria and Iraq. It has also been the Hub of the Arab world since the 900s AD during the Fatimid Empire, way before Saladin so it would make sense to have an Islamic and Arab leadership like Saladin to hail from Cairo at that time in history. 2- Saladin was half Kurdish and he married an Arab, spoke Arabic, did not know one word of Kurdish. All his writings were in Arabic, his name is Arabic and he led the Arabs. Also the word Arabian is not used "synonymously as Muslim". Only ignorant people perceive it as such. There are two school of thoughts when it comes to this "Arab" issue, and the 2 are ancient. One school of thought suggests that a person is considered an Arab if he or she is a native speaker of the Arabic language. While the second school of thought suggests that a person is considered Arab genetically. Now that region has intermixed and mingled for the past 1400 years and beyond(even since the Abrahamic times where Abraham, a Chaldean Semitic man, married an Egyptian woman named Hagar who brought Ishmael, the father of the Arabs). So knowing how this region was mixed to hell, the Arabs there have agreed that anyone who's native tongue is Arabic, is automatically considered an Arab. There are no genetically pure Arabs and certainly Saudi Arabia is not pure Arab. The closest to being the purest Arabs are in Yemen. Anyways, the Arabian peninsula didn't rule except for the first years during the Islamic conquest and the Rashidun Caliphate which was the first caliphate After the death of Prophet Mohamed. The Countries that were considered the Hub of the Arab world were always Egypt, Iraq and Syria. The Arabian peninsula had been stagnate since most of the great scientists, leaders and artists migrated to those countries ever since the conquests 1400 years ago to advance the Arab culture. All that was left over in the Arabian peninsula was nothing but tribalism up until the discovery of oil in the Arabian peninsula in the 1930s which led to the prosperity of Saudi Arabia. Also, I strongly recommend to read what I have posted in regards to Shin's question. I know this is a 2 year old discussion by the way but felt that I had to comment.

Adding to that comment, which i sent too early. I don't mean to be overly contentious. I'm sure that I could learn a lot from you.

[ArabPride1987]

Originally posted by Kyle Reese:

Originally posted by theegyptianone2:

Saladin was half Kurdish and he married an Arab, spoke Arabic, did not know one word of Kurdish. All his writings were in Arabic, his name is Arabic and he led the Arabs. Also the word Arabian is not used "synonymously as Muslim". Only ignorant people perceive it as such. There are two school of thoughts when it comes to this "Arab" issue, and the 2 are ancient. One school of thought suggests that a person is considered an Arab if he or she is a native speaker of the Arabic language. While the second school of thought suggests that a person is considered Arab genetically. Now that region has intermixed and mingled for the past 1400 years and beyond(even since the Abrahamic times where Abraham, a Chaldean Semitic man, married an Egyptian woman named Hagar who brought Ishmael, the father of the Arabs). So knowing how this region was mixed to hell, the Arabs there have agreed that anyone who's native tongue is Arabic, is automatically considered an Arab. There are no genetically pure Arabs and certainly Saudi Arabia is not pure Arab. The closest to being the purest Arabs are in Yemen. Also I strongly recommend to read what I have posted in regards to Shin's question. I know this is a 2 year old discussion by the way but felt that I had to comment.

-Firstly, the orginial question is in the context of the game universe where in most civ games Mecca was the capital of the Arabian civilization. The questioner litterally asked why this was different here, so I really have no idea why you opted for such a snarky response beyond the fact you could, when he/she was looking for an answer. Surely, this video game company is capable of making bad choices so it's not beyond the pale to think this was a mistake and ask about it.

-"Half Kurdish" is a new one. That's the appropriation of history at work. You don't see Arabs claiming Kurds generally, so it must be a product of his greatness. In his own life and in every account therrafter he is noted as a Kurd. There's not a book I know of that ever considered him an Arab. What does marrying an Arab have to do with being an Arab? And the Umayyad spoke Greek; they were still ethnically Arabs.

-Given Saladin's bonuses in the game, which are all connected to religion, it is clear that the game developers did not have Cairo on their mind when designing the Arabian civilization. It's pretty obvious that the Arab agenda in the game, is more rooted in Islamic history coming out of the Arabian pennisula than in Egyptian history. Arabian and Egyptian histories are not synonymous. Thus choosing a capital outside of Arabia for the Arabian civilization is a bit unusual; it's more to do with the leader they wanted in the game than history.

Classical Arabic was the language of the Umayyad Caliphate. The only reason why the Umayyad used Greek officially early on was due to the Byzantine empire using the Greek language, but It was never the native tongue of the Umayyad population. Their Native tongue was still Arabic lol. What a silly comparison to make. This is not the same thing as a man(Saladin) Who views himself as an Arab, who is a native Arabic speaker(meaning his first language is Arabic), leads the Arab people, etc. I have already explained this to you, im gonna copy and paste it again sigh....." One school of thought suggests that a person is considered an Arab if he or she is a native speaker of the Arabic language. While the second school of thought suggests that a person is considered Arab genetically."

The third point you made is only correct if you were referring to the Arab civilization from the very tribal beginnings of the Arabian peninsula and their start of spreading westward into the Levant and North Africa and building a civilization, but that would not be the case if the game decides to start the Arab civilization from Saladin. If the Arabian civilization Starts with Saladin in the game, then obviously it would always be Cairo because Cairo was the Hub in the 900s AD till this day and Saladin Ruled in the 12th century in Cairo because that was the major Center of the Arab world. He came in to replace the Shia Muslim Fatimid Caliphate and changed the Al Azhar School/Institution from a shia to a Sunni institution and changed many aspects of Fatimid practices, etc.

[Kyle Reese]

Originally posted by theegyptianone2:

Originally posted by Kyle Reese:

-Firstly, the orginial question is in the context of the game universe where in most civ games Mecca was the capital of the Arabian civilization. The questioner litterally asked why this was different here, so I really have no idea why you opted for such a snarky response beyond the fact you could, when he/she was looking for an answer. Surely, this video game company is capable of making bad choices so it's not beyond the pale to think this was a mistake and ask about it.

-"Half Kurdish" is a new one. That's the appropriation of history at work. You don't see Arabs claiming Kurds generally, so it must be a product of his greatness. In his own life and in every account therrafter he is noted as a Kurd. There's not a book I know of that ever considered him an Arab. What does marrying an Arab have to do with being an Arab? And the Umayyad spoke Greek; they were still ethnically Arabs.

-Given Saladin's bonuses in the game, which are all connected to religion, it is clear that the game developers did not have Cairo on their mind when designing the Arabian civilization. It's pretty obvious that the Arab agenda in the game, is more rooted in Islamic history coming out of the Arabian pennisula than in Egyptian history. Arabian and Egyptian histories are not synonymous. Thus choosing a capital outside of Arabia for the Arabian civilization is a bit unusual; it's more to do with the leader they wanted in the game than history.

Classical Arabic was the language of the Umayyad Caliphate. The only reason why the Umayyad used Greek officially early on was due to the Byzantine empire using the Greek language, but It was never the native tongue of the Umayyad population. Their Native tongue was still Arabic lol. What a silly comparison to make. This is not the same thing as a man(Saladin) Who views himself as an Arab, who is a native Arabic speaker(meaning his first language is Arabic), leads the Arab people, etc. I have already explained this to you, im gonna copy and paste it again sigh....." One school of thought suggests that a person is considered an Arab if he or she is a native speaker of the Arabic language. While the second school of thought suggests that a person is considered Arab genetically."

The third point you made is only correct if you were referring to the Arab civilization from the very tribal beginnings of the Arabian peninsula and their start of spreading westward into the Levant and North Africa and building a civilization, but that would not be the case if the game decides to start the Arab civilization from Saladin. If the Arabian civilization Starts with Saladin in the game, then obviously it would always be Cairo because Cairo was the Hub in the 900s AD till this day and Saladin Ruled in the 12th century in Cairo because that was the major Center of the Arab world. He came in to replace the Shia Muslim Fatimid Caliphate and changed the Al Azhar School/Institution from a shia to a Sunni institution and changed many aspects of Fatimid practices, etc.

Syrians had been speaking Greek since Alexander the Great. The Umayyad used Greek officially. I never said anything about the population. Since you used language as a factor, this is an obvious rebutal. By the way, most Iberians spoke Arabic during the centuries-long occupation but that would not make them Arabs and no one would suggest they were. No one thinks of genetics as a factor, hence both schools of though are silly and not really relevent to the conversation.Historically, Arabs are the people living in and orignially from the Arabian Penninusla.

Saladin was a Kurd. Let's not be silly.

[ArabPride1987]

Originally posted by Kyle Reese:

Originally posted by theegyptianone2:

Classical Arabic was the language of the Umayyad Caliphate. The only reason why the Umayyad used Greek officially early on was due to the Byzantine empire using the Greek language, but It was never the native tongue of the Umayyad population. Their Native tongue was still Arabic lol. What a silly comparison to make. This is not the same thing as a man(Saladin) Who views himself as an Arab, who is a native Arabic speaker(meaning his first language is Arabic), leads the Arab people, etc. I have already explained this to you, im gonna copy and paste it again sigh....." One school of thought suggests that a person is considered an Arab if he or she is a native speaker of the Arabic language. While the second school of thought suggests that a person is considered Arab genetically."

The third point you made is only correct if you were referring to the Arab civilization from the very tribal beginnings of the Arabian peninsula and their start of spreading westward into the Levant and North Africa and building a civilization, but that would not be the case if the game decides to start the Arab civilization from Saladin. If the Arabian civilization Starts with Saladin in the game, then obviously it would always be Cairo because Cairo was the Hub in the 900s AD till this day and Saladin Ruled in the 12th century in Cairo because that was the major Center of the Arab world. He came in to replace the Shia Muslim Fatimid Caliphate and changed the Al Azhar School/Institution from a shia to a Sunni institution and changed many aspects of Fatimid practices, etc.

Syrians had been speaking Greek since Alexander the Great. The Umayyad used Greek officially. I never said anything about the population. Since you used language as a factor, this is an obvious rebutal. By the way, most Iberians spoke Arabic during the centuries-long occupation but that would not make them Arabs and no one would suggest they were. No one thinks of genetics as a factor, hence both schools of though are silly and not really relevent to the conversation.Historically, Arabs are the people living in and orignially from the Arabian Penninusla.

Saladin was a Kurd. Let's not be silly.

Not true at all. If you look up the definition of an Arab right now, this is what you would find "Definition of Arab
a member of an Arabic-speaking people"

or if you type "Semite" you would get... "a member of any of the peoples who speak or spoke a Semitic language, including in particular the Jews and Arabs."

when we say "Arab" today we definitely do not just refer to the people of the Arabian peninsula.
Arab " a member of a Semitic people, originally from the Arabian peninsula and neighboring territories, inhabiting much of the Middle East and North Africa."

The Iberian peninsula at the time of the occupation was inhabited by many Arabs and Moors but many Spaniards retained their original Spanish language and the ones that didn't, considered themselves as Arabs. If your native tongue as a Spaniard back in those days was Arabic, and your parents and grandparents were native Arabic speakers, then there was no reason to suggest that you were a Spaniard.