Destroy a Civilization by Loyalty?

[Dray Prescot]

I think that it MAY be possible to destroy another Civilization by taking almost all of their Cities and then causing their LAST city to revolt by Loyalty pressure, first it becomes a Free City, and if it revolts AGAIN because of loyalty it will probably join your Civ, Although it could join a different Civ that was close enough.

Is this actually POSSIBLE under the Loyalty system that Rise & Fall brought into Civ 6?

If it is possible, then this might avoid the warmonger penalty for taking the last City of a Civilization and destroying it. Correct??

I am playing a Game as Pericles/Greece and in/after my 2nd War with China, I have reduced them to 2 Cities, and I am debating with myself what to do with them. I would like to avoid the doubled Warmonger penalty for capturing the LAST city of a Civilization and destroying it.

Having those 2 (or even 1 of them) cities will be helpful if/when I go to War (or get declared War on by) the Civs on the other side of them, i.e. the Mongols (a very warlike Civ) and Mapuche. I am also considering the idea of seeing how going for a Domination Victory works under the Loyalty system of Rise & Fall in Civ 6.

I am already the Point Score, Empire, Techs, and Civics leader in the game , so I can go for any Victory Condition I want (except Religion, that would be hard for me to do, although even that is not impossible). The problem (for a Domination Victory) is that there are 12 Civilizations spread out across a VERY large land mass on Fractal Map on the next to largest Map size. The related problem is keeping control of ALL of those Capitals under the new loyalty system, because of loyalty pressure from any nearby Cities that I do not conquer.

I was planning to go for a Cultural (Tourism) Victory as Greece with lots of Acropolises, but I wonder about the Domination Victory Condition, it (Domination) is not my usual way of playing Civ 6.

I have almost ignored Religion in this game (again not my usual way of playing Civ 6), but capturing a lot of Capitals and nearby Cities, will also give me a lot of the Religions, their founding Holy Sites, other Holy Sites, and their Faith point production.

[Synavix]

It's totally possible, I've wiped out civs that way before. But I think you still get warmonger penalty from claiming their last city even if it was already flipped to a free city.

If you're trying to win a domination victory without warmonger penalities (or just minimizing them) then the easiest way is to exploit emergencies. If you go to war with someone because of an emergency then all cities you capture from them create no warmonger penalty, even after the emergency ends. If you wipe them out completely you'll still get a bit from that, but just taking cities will always give you "none". It only works if you were at peace with them before the emergency starts (otherwise it just assumes it's part of your regular war and gives you penalties based on that, I think) and will go back to normal if you ever make peace. I'm not sure if it works with defensive emergencies.

Domination on huge maps is a lot harder with loyalty, especially on land maps. For maps with a lot of coastline what I'll try to do is conquer ~40-50% of the map and try to take like 75% of capitals and then plan out a multi-pronged attack to take the remaining 3 or 4 capitals all at once with seperate armies. That way you can just take them all within 3 turns of eachother and it won't matter that they're losing loyalty because it will trigger the victory anyway. I've only really done that with island maps, though. With land it would be a lot harder because you'd need to work your way through their other cities first most of the time. For those really large maps it's a lot easier to go for science or culture.

[gimmethegepgun]

Not only is this possible, but the True Start Position earth map is unplayable because of this, because half of Europe immediately revolts, destroying most of the civs.

[Dray Prescot]

Thank you far answering my question, I thought that it might be possible. When I look at the other Civs feelings toward me, I am not suffering much YET from Warmongering penalties.

Culture and Science are my preferred Victory Conditions. I liked Civ 6 most when it first came out and before they Nerfed (now only one gives the bonus) the Industrial and Entertainment District buildings that gave bonuses to all city centers within 6 tiles of the Districts, and did not play it much after the first expansion, and even less after the 2nd expansion (Rise & Fall). This is the first time I have been playing Civ 6 in 6 months or more. I tried one or two games of Rise & Fall when it first came out, but did not really understand how the Loyalty system worked back then. I think that I have the general idea now.

I have spent a lot of time playing earlier Civ games (even Civ 3) all the way back to day 1 of Civ 1 (I had it on preorder at the local software store, because I liked Rail Road Tycoon which came out about a year earlier), but I am not playing Civ 6 much anymore. I probably play more of Galactic Civilizations (since it's begining) and keep waiting for a Victoria 3 (not likely) and Distant Worlds 2 (I think it is being worked on), or even Pride of Nations 2 (they are busy doing other games with the same AGEOD game engine, unfortunately). I am not a big fan of city builder games (even on other worlds) and have given up on both Stellaris and Europa Universalis 4. I play Railway Empires off and on.

I choose the Fractal Map at game setup, and the land masses go all the way up/down to both Polar Zones, with only long and one tile wide paths of useable water near each Pole. Plus they all seem to connect together, except possibly where Korea is, I have not explored with my scouts far enough towards her yet. I have almost circumnavigated the World with my scouts on land (as much as possble).

Added: Even Korea was connected to the main land mass. There were only scattered small islands on the West side of the total land mass. See my screenshot of the world at the bottom of this thread on turn 220 with the start of Era 5 (Industrial Era) where I have the complete Map because of a Great Leader. At that point I was working on conquering my 4th Civ (Persia) after conquering China, Georgia, and Aztec.

I mostly decided to play Civ 6 again because of the new expansion coming out in Feb and wanted a better idea of how Rise & Fall really worked.

Since I am on the far East side of the land mass, I could go after the relativly nearby (via ocean) Capital Cities (Korea and Egypt and Arabia in particular on my map) on the far West side of the land mass. The other Capital Cities I can probably reach from my present position. There a few that will be somewhat harder to reach.

[View The Phenom]

Yes, this is possible; I've taken out the Netherlands using this tactic before. I don't think you gain the warmonger penalty for eliminating the civilization, but you don't receive the era score for doing it either.

[leandrombraz]

The easiest way to take the last city of a Civ and avoid the penalty is to leave a city you can liberate as last, then you liberate it. You won't get the penalty for that last city and you will get a huge reduction on the warmongering you got conquering the other cities.


[quote=Synavix;32160316074981816
52]It's totally possible, I've wiped out civs that way before. But I think you still get warmonger penalty from claiming their last city even if it was already flipped to a free city.
[/quote]

you're not supposed to get warmongering when you flip a city, any city. If you got, you just found a bug.

[Dray Prescot]

@leandrombraz, that is an interesting idea since China had 2 conquered City States when I started the 2nd War with him. I have already liberated one of them and conquered the other one, but I could go back to a saved turn from a couple of turns back, and change the order in which I take his Cities(he had 5 Cities at the start of the 2nd War with him).

I already tried to get the Mongols to join the War on China, they agreed, but they have not had any military units join the fight yet. The Mongols only have about 5 Cities.

[leandrombraz]

Originally posted by Dray Prescot:

@leandrombraz, that is an interesting idea since China had 2 conquered City States when I started the 2nd War with him. I have already liberated one of them and conquered the other one, but I could go back to a saved turn from a couple of turns back, and change the order in which I take his Cities(he had 5 Cities at the start of the 2nd War with him).

I already tried to get the Mongols to join the War on China, they agreed, but they have not had any military units join the fight yet. The Mongols only have about 5 Cities.

Even if Mongolia don't attack with their units, it still worth to ask them to join the war since you won't get any warmongering with Mongolia, because you're fighting the same enemy. I always invite everyone to my wars, mostly my allies and friends so it stay that way. If you manage to invite everyone you care about to join your war and conquer all cities before they make peace, you don't even need to worry about how you gonna get that last city, you won't get warmongering with anyone that joined your war. I would still liberate the last city though, just in case someone make peace before you're done and there's always that one guy that didn't want to join the war. I always try to do both, I invite to join my wars and I liberate cities, ususally CS, to avoid penalties. It been working so far, it been a while since I had problem with warmongering.

[Dray Prescot]

I did restart from a saved game, When I took the last City from China and liberated it to be a City State my Warmongering index with the various other Civs did not change, and I got the + 5 to relarions for liberating a City.

There was also another interesting possibility, the second to last City I took from China had been conquered from the Mongols, and I could have liberated it as well back to Mongolia's ownership. I suspect that this also could have been used by me to avoid the doubled penalty for taking the last City of a Civ, if I had taken that City last.

Meanwhile the other City State that China had conquered I delayed conquering it, and it rebelled from China and became a Free City, but it seems like it did NOT become the old City State, and instead I would have to attack it, conquer it, and then liberate it, for it to return to City State Status. It says in the tool tip over the City name that it can be liberated.

Meanwhile my Warmonger status with most of the Civs is now at -24 (from the Cities that I conquered earlier) before and after the death of China by liberating the City State. Plus the +5 for liberating the City State.

I even had a proposed emergency against me for attacking a City of Chine when I restarted the War from the saved game turn, but the only two Civs that could take part in it were China and Georgia (my other close starting neighbor) and I think that they both turned down the opportunity for the Emergency. TOO Bad, I could have used the rewards to me for withstanding their emergency and could even used it to justify an attack by me on Georgia and conquer some of her Cities.

I now have 22 Cities with the next largest at 11, and most of the rest in the 8 to 10 City range. I did build more cities to try to use all of the territory available to me without Spaming a lot of extra cities. I think that 7 of those (22) Cities came from China (in two Wars) plus two more City States that I conquered myself very early in the game before my first War with China

[Dray Prescot]

I tried rerunning the turn where I took China's last City, which was a City State. If I liberated it, then the next turn my Warmonger status was -24 in most of the AI Civs, IF I KEPT it as my own City, then my Warmonger status the next turn was -58 because of killing China, a difference of -34. So it DOES make a BIG difference by killing a Civ by liberating their last City.

The problem I had with that liberated City State was keeping control of it afterwards as Suezeran, there are so few City States left on the Map that it attracted a LOT of Envoys, plus it was a Science oriented State with a bonus of 15% to Science, if you were not at War, which I really wanted for myself.

added: Wrong: it was a 15% bonus to population growth to any city with library and university while you are at peace. It did have the usual bonus for Science City States: +2 to libraries and +2 to Universities which can be nice when you have 5 or 6 Campuses like I do.

There is a nice promotion to the one governor, but it takes about 4 promotions to get it: the governor added 2 envoys (earlier promotion) and then acts to double the number of your envoys, but only in that City State. This is nice, and particularly useful combined with the the Policy that gives +2 income for each envoy that you have assigned to all City States.

(see below comments also) With some Policies and Techs and Religions/Beliefs/etc and promotions to certain Governor(s), you can use Governor(s) to help improve Loyalty in captured Cities , but only to a certain extent, and unfortunately it is the same Governor I want to use to hold onto the City State in the long term. It also only works if there is not TOO much bad loyalty pressure from foreign cities nearby. BUT it does give you a chance to build some buildings to improve loyalty and amentities in that newly captured city. This was part of why I stopped my first War with China after capturing 3 border cities, and waited to capture the rest of his cities in a 2nd War. Religious pressure can help/hurt with Loyalty pressure.

But in the long run, you will need a group of several nearby cities to hold on to foreign captured Capitals if you want to go for a Domination Victory (see comments above by others).

This game has been different from my normal (when I was playing it before) Game of Civ 6, the same effort I used to place in religion: Holy Sites, buildings, Apostles, Policies, Civics, etc. this time I put into Encampments and their buildings, Great General Points, and more Campuses (than I usually made) and their buildings and Great Scientists, and the Civics/Social Policies for both Military and Science (some of which I did before, but more so with Relgion not being pushed by me, also in a different order than before).

[asnjas19]

Ok, so, how do you do this? I never seeem to generate enought loyalty with govs, policies and spies to make it work. Seemed like a deterrent to poor city placement than a real threat to taking over cities aggressively.

[GhostDragon]

Here is how i do it:

Step 1: capture City
Step 2: kill all units the free city
spawns(they won't produce
more)
Step 3: march to next city and take it

Repeat until taken city doesn't revolt

[Dray Prescot]

Update on progress: I declared war on Georgia (after finishing off China), my starting neighbor to my South West, and conquered all but one city by turn 158. This last city was on the southern coast line next to the south polar ice, and was surrounded by my captured cities. I went to Ren. Era (4th Era) on turn 160, and Georgia's last City rebelled to a Free City on turn 175 which is also when I got Nationalism (Corps and Armadas). So Georgia is now dead, and I am preparing to conquer the Aztecs after I get my frontline VERY experienced units (musketmen, bombards, the lighter artillery cannon unit, and knights) reinforced into Corps.

Tech wise and even Civic wise I am in the Industrial Era, which is one Era ahead of the actual Era. I just started my 3rd Golden Age in a row with only 2 other Civs in their 3rd Golden Age, 4 Civs are actually in a Dark Age now.

I think that I should be able to pull off a Domination Victory, probably long before I could get to a Scientific Victory or even before a Cultural Victory.There is no one who will be able to stop my military, and I have a major lead in Tech and Civics.

The only reason to keep playing is to see how the details work out. I do not think that I have ever had a Domination Victory in any of the Civ 6 versions.

[Despiser]

Originally posted by Dray Prescot:

The only reason to keep playing is to see how the details work out. I do not think that I have ever had a Domination Victory in any of the Civ 6 versions.

If you go for cultural victories aggressively by assimilating with loyalty, it’s sometimes shorter to finish them off by domination towards the end.

[Dray Prescot]

If you take enough of the high culture and high tourism cities from the Civs leading in Tourism, then it becomes a lot easier to win by Culture. BUT, Tourism to be really effective requires a number of high level Techs and Civics to really start generating a LOT of foreign Tourists.

[Dray Prescot]

Another Update: it is turn 200 (1690 AD) and Aztec is conquered, with it's last City being a liberated City State. With the 5th Era coming in 10 to 20 turns. It will be my 4th Golden Age in a row. With Aztec in a Dark Age and me in a Golden Age, Loyalty pressure even in newly conquered Cities was NO problem, I only reassigned one of my governors to the former Capital City (I have ALL of the governors) who is also maxed out in promotions so she gets LOTS of Loyalty and Amenity benefits (the second one who specializes in this).

So I have conquered China, Georgia and Aztec out of 12 Civs total.

Meanwhile my Warmonger score is down to -56 to -57 in most of the other Civs, I think that almost all of them have now denounced me. Even my one Reserch Alliance/Treaty has been broken by the other party.

However, my point score is about equal to the sum of the next 3 Civs, so I am NOT worried, particularly now that I redeploy my military to protect my borders. After 3 Wars I have a LOT of VERY experienced Corps units (I have many at 3 or 4 promotions, even in Artillery units), I have a few Armadas but the Map makes Naval power of tertiary importance

I can pick whatever Victory Condition I want to go for, even Domination or Religious (with me holding 4 Founding Holy Sites and additional conquered Holy sites, that new City State is a Religious type with a nice 100% bonus to Religious pressure from ALL Holy Sites).

I wonder if I am in a Golden Age and a direct bordering neighbor Civ is in a Dark Age if I can flip some of their Cities to me by Loyalty. I think that it should be possible. I expect even more Civs to be in a Dark Age, 4 are already there with only 2 still in a Golden Age before the new Era. I may have to consider using Spies to help flip Cities as well.