Promises. What's the difference between refuse vs ignore vs break?

[Ripz]

Sorry I can't find a clear answer anywhere online. What i'd assume:

1) Keeping promises = no penalty.
2) Refuse/ignore = small penalty.
3) Break promise = large penalty.

But after about an hour of googling im confused af. There's also been a lot of changes since release, so a lot of outdated info. I'm playing the latest version of GS, no other DLC.

I'd expect it works the way I mention above, penalties in the form of greivances, favor, relations, warmonger, casus belli, etc. but apparently not? I read there's literally no difference between refuse, ignore, and even break promise?? Why the hell would that be the case? Why even have the options then? Especially refuse and ignore, i originally thought maybe ignore was just a randomized version of refuse, where there's a chance to have a smaller or larger penalty than just refusing if you want to take the risk, but after testing it seems ignoring them is just refusing without any penalty. That can't be right, why would I ever refuse then?

Can someone PLEASE clear this up for me.

[sauluxville]

Have you looked into here: https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Grievances_(Civ6)

That covers your points 2 and 3. Basically the same, except on breaking a promise you get penalized by extra 100 grievances.
The option "Ignore" was added at some point to avoid making players to choose only between declaring war outright on the AI's turn and making a promise that will potentially be broken, when they asked to move troops.
On the whole, the diplomacy logic has been coded rather shoddily, they never finished polishing it, as they never finished polishing many other things.

If you keep a promise (you get respective notification), you get a small diplomatic modifier, which you can check under the 'heart' tab in the dialog with a leader screen.
Note that having grievances translate into additional negative diplo modifiers (I cant remember the exact ratio) with the afflicted party, but also some penalty with the other AIs, so gravely hurting one AI will eventually sour your relations with all the others.

Except those with who you already have declared friendships and alliances. Friends and allies will also show negative diplo modifiers, but as friendships and alliances are unbreakable, those negatives don't matter, as long as you renew those friendships/alliances on the turn of expiry, which they always accept unless you're late game and very close to victory.

Basically, early game grievances do not matter much, as they decay rather quickly, then midgame, as you've met pretty much everyone, you can select your friends and future allies, lock them into permanent friendships and have good trading with them, and kill or abuse everybody else in the meanwhile, while all your friends/allies keep smiling and nodding.

This unbreakability of declared friendships and guaranteed renewal makes diplomacy rather primitive and trivial in Civ VI.

[Ripz]

Originally posted by sauluxville:

Have you looked into here: https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Grievances_(Civ6)

No I didn't see that, all I saw was that there was no page on promises. Thanks, that page and your description helps ALOT.

Good to know each option has appropriate consequences. But yeah if there's no way for allies to refuse maintaining an alliance once started, that sounds like a huge problem. Is that by design or just an oversight? I been trying to make my games more challenging so maybe i'll limit my renewals by waiting a turn so it works as intended.

Only thing im still confused about is the difference between rejecting a promise and just ignoring them. Is it just the same thing? Closing the window automatically rejects the promise? I don't remember rejecting meaning I have to declare war on them, is that only for the troops border promise? In that case ignore is the same as reject except no war? Why would you ever declare war in that way anyway? Is it less penalties somehow?

[sauluxville]

Originally posted by Generic White Guy:

But yeah if there's no way for allies to refuse maintaining an alliance once started, that sounds like a huge problem. Is that by design or just an oversight?

The wiki page claims that this is due to a bug, but I really have no idea. The whole diplo system gives an impression that devs gave the whole thing as little attention as possible.

Originally posted by Generic White Guy:

Why would you ever declare war in that way anyway? Is it less penalties somehow?

If you declare war when challenged, then you don't get that extra penalty for making a promise and then breaking it. But I have not had such a situation recently, so I forget what are the exact difference between refuse and ignore. Or I give so little importance to this that I just don't pay attention, as usually it does not matter much. If it is still early, then who cares, as negatives will decay soon, and later I usually have the world already divided into friends and not friends, so all meaningful diplomacy is already done and dusted.

All in all, diplomacy may be very important early game, if you start in a difficult situation next to two-three neighbours, then signing an early DoF may mean that you survive the start. But if it is already past turn 80 (on Standard) and you're still on the map, AI basically stops posing a serious military danger and can no longer threaten your survival, so there's little harm in abusing them more than possibly less.

[Ripz]

Originally posted by sauluxville:

All in all, diplomacy may be very important early game, if you start in a difficult situation next to two-three neighbours, then signing an early DoF may mean that you survive the start. But if it is already past turn 80 (on Standard) and you're still on the map, AI basically stops posing a serious military danger and can no longer threaten your survival, so there's little harm in abusing them more than possibly less.

Huh, well i was under the impression diplomacy would matter more in the later game considering how long i've been playing and still nothings happened. I've played a few games now, increasing the difficulty every time, and despite games taking hours and hundreds of turns, there's never been any sort of challenge or really anything happening at all, other than when going for a domination victory. Anything else everyone just gets along and nothing happens, and then i just win.

I assumed the fun starts later in the game but im still just spamming buildings to increase numbers which dont do anything but unlock more ♥♥♥♥ to further increase those same numbers, and then i randomly win once the number for a certain victory type is high enough. Its boring af. I thought this game was all about the diplomacy but there's zero challenge to it. Thats why im here asking about breaking promises n ♥♥♥♥, i seen a few mods that make negative relationship modifers stronger, add more conflict-inducing traits to the AI, and improve the AI logic, hoping that'll help, and maybe if I understood the game a little better I'd figure out what im doing wrong to get a more challenging and interesting game.

Anyway if diplomacy stops mattering late game, then what DOES matter? Cuz I havent found it yet. Game just feels hella easy and i dont even know wtf im doing :/

[sauluxville]

Originally posted by Generic White Guy:

I've played a few games now, increasing the difficulty every time, and despite games taking hours and hundreds of turns, there's never been any sort of challenge or really anything happening at all, other than when going for a domination victory. Anything else everyone just gets along and nothing happens, and then i just win.

Yes, that's Civ VI for you, a pretty accurate description.

Originally posted by Generic White Guy:

I assumed the fun starts later in the game.

No it's the opposite - the fun dies later in the game, in the quagmire of the increasing number of less and less important mouse clicks :)

Originally posted by Generic White Guy:

Anyway if diplomacy stops mattering late game, then what DOES matter? Cuz I havent found it yet. Game just feels hella easy and i dont even know wtf im doing :/

I guess what may matter is planning your game so that you can efficiently close it by achieving the aimed victory condition without allowing the game to drag on much longer than needed. People aim at sub t200 victories (on standard speed) or even much faster than that.
Apart from surviving an occasional difficult start, the only challenge to overcome is the last best victory time of your own. Or of other players.

There's Game of the Month series on Civfanatics (https://forums.civfanatics.com/forums/civ6-game-of-the-month.545/), you could try your hand there and see where you stand in a game where you are not allowed to reload to correct a mistake or a misclick. Sometimes people also post quite detailed write-ups of their games, where you could also pick up a useful trick or two.

[Ripz]

Originally posted by sauluxville:

Originally posted by Generic White Guy:

I've played a few games now, increasing the difficulty every time, and despite games taking hours and hundreds of turns, there's never been any sort of challenge or really anything happening at all, other than when going for a domination victory. Anything else everyone just gets along and nothing happens, and then i just win.

Yes, that's Civ VI for you, a pretty accurate description.

Originally posted by Generic White Guy:

I assumed the fun starts later in the game.

No it's the opposite - the fun dies later in the game, in the quagmire of the increasing number of less and less important mouse clicks :)

Originally posted by Generic White Guy:

Anyway if diplomacy stops mattering late game, then what DOES matter? Cuz I havent found it yet. Game just feels hella easy and i dont even know wtf im doing :/

I guess what may matter is planning your game so that you can efficiently close it by achieving the aimed victory condition without allowing the game to drag on much longer than needed. People aim at sub t200 victories (on standard speed) or even much faster than that.
Apart from surviving an occasional difficult start, the only challenge to overcome is the last best victory time of your own. Or of other players.

There's Game of the Month series on Civfanatics (https://forums.civfanatics.com/forums/civ6-game-of-the-month.545/), you could try your hand there and see where you stand in a game where you are not allowed to reload to correct a mistake or a misclick. Sometimes people also post quite detailed write-ups of their games, where you could also pick up a useful trick or two.

Thanks man i appreciate the help. A bit disappointing tho lol, the game seems capable of so much but its like the devs didnt do much with it. Ima try modding the hell outta my game, see if i can get more out of it that way.