Zombies

[Sarisin]

OK, if you choose not to enable the Zombie mode of the game kindly move on to another thread and spare me the name-calling. If you do use the Zombie mode, please feel free to join in the discussion.

Here are a few random points based on playing a dozen or so games with the Zombie mode enabled:

1. How are Zombies created? Well, one would think that whenever a living unit (AI or barb) is killed you could have a Zombie pop up on the screen. However, here's what I don't get. It seems like you get the Zombies when you kill another Zombie. As an old fart that has viewed and read plenty of Zombie stuff over the years I have never seen a dead Zombie come back. You kill a Zombie (preferably with a blow, stab, gunshot, whatever) to the ole noggin and that is it. You have a dead Zombie. They don't come back.

However, in Civ 6 Zombie mode you kill a Zombie and you have an excellent chance that Zombie will come back the very next turn. To illustrate this in one game I placed 3 strong units in a choke point where the Zombies could only squeeze in one at a time. Each turn I would kill the Zombie and the next turn it would re-appear. When this hit 50 times I just gave up and moved my units away.

IMO Zombies should only be created when you kill an AI or Barb (not a Zombie) unit. When you kill a Zombie that should be it - no reappearing next turn and next turn and next turn...

2. Zombie mode can be fun and even benefit your game as the AI doesn't do well with Zombies. But also Zombie mode can be a tedious mess that degenerates into what can only be called Whack-A-Zombie. It is not uncommon to have six or more Zombies just suddenly appear. Of course, #1 above contributes mightily to this as well.

3. There are what I call Ghost Zombies in the game too. These would be Zombies that just appear out of the ether nowhere near where any units of any kind died. For example, I was having them appear outside newly settled cities who saw no action at all up to the point they had Zombies on their doorstep. At least with regular barbs I believe they must be generated from Barb Settlements, but it seems Zombies can appear just magically.

4. There has always been a problem with Civ 6 playing at the slower speeds like Epic and Marathon. You would get Barb Settlements and barbs appearing before you had a chance to create even one unit at the slow game speed. If you play with Zombie mode enabled this is worse. In addition to the Barb Settlement that pops up very close to your capital city suddenly three barb units will be produced - usually a Spearman, a Scout AND a Zombie. Again, how does a Barb Settlement create a Zombie? Maybe a Zombie lab hidden in there? Depending on map size, number of Civs, etc. you may get swarmed quickly as Barb Settlements each producing these three units appear early on. At the very least your expansion is stopped in its tracks and you can forget about building improvements, buildings, districts and wonders as you need to produce units to survive.

5. One strategy I used to use was to send my Warrior directly to any Barb Settlement that would pop up as the Scout and Spearman were easy to deal with. Playing in the Barb mode it would allow me to farm a bit of gold, gain experience and even if I wanted to gain a Vampire. Now, in Zombie mode it is very difficult to do this as you have the added Zombie to deal with too. Hopefully, a nearby City-State or civ will contribute a unit or two to help you with this.

6. OK, just one more. I have to mention this strategy as it can be a game breaker if you are in Zombie mode. There is a way to command the Undead as a buildable item, but I never use that. Here is how you can getting rolling with defenders against the Zombies, and also set yourself up to take down City-States and AI civs. Create an Apostle when you get a religion and enough Faith. If you are lucky (or you are the Suzerain of Yerevan) you rejoice when you have the promotion to capture barbs three times. I think there is a Great Person that allows you to do it once. The Zombies are considered barbs so take your Apostle (support with another unit is best) where Zombies are constantly popping up. Wait for them to come for you and then capture as many as you can. I can usually get 3-4 doing this. These are great 'free' units to have. Although they do not get any promotions (I don't think they get Undead bonus or whatever that is called), they can be combined into Corps and Armies! Zombie Armies fighting for you. I like to give mine names like Romero, Nicotero, Johnny, Barbara, Neegan, etc.

Sorry for the long post, but I welcome any feedback, discussion etc. on Zombie mode.

[PhailRaptor]

1) Any time a Zombie dies, there is a high degree of probability that a new Zombie will spawn as a result. Any time a Zombie kills a unit, there is a high probability that a new Zombie will be created. Any time any unit dies, there is a small chance a new Zombie will be created. Any time a Zombie deals health damage to a city, there is a small chance a new Zombie will be created. Any time a Barb camp spawns, 2 Zombies will spawn with it.

As a consequence of the above, the Dark Signal project from the Campus and Turn Undead project from the Holy Site are dangerous to use. The reality is they are coded very poorly. They work not by changing control from the Barb AI (yes, Zombies and Barbs are controlled by the same 'player') to the Civ, but by killing the Barb Zombies and creating new Zombies for the player. Since all those Zombies died, new ones will spawn as a result. The same occurs when the time runs out on the Civ control of the Zombies -- they do not change ownership, they are killed and new ones are spawned for the Barbs. This means that using either project will probably just triple the number of Zombies involved.

3) When a zombie respawns it doesn't always do it in the same place. This leads to them randomly appearing somewhere else.

6) I have to wonder if the Heathen Conversion ability also spawns extra Zombies the way the Dark Signal and Turn Undead projects do... If it does not, then there really is no excuse for the absolute craziness the projects cause.

[Sarisin]

Has anyone attempted or been successful in a game with a Domination Victory with the Zombie mode enabled? I have tried it playing at Prince with a number of leaders and have not gotten close.

[Maarken]

i love play in marathon or (with historical speed mode) and when zombie enable, you must put ranged unit il all your city, because zombie spawn near random city very often and if kill by not ranged unit a new zombie respawn.
So game is very long because you are at war (with zombies) every turn
And IA can't prevent Zombie hordes, so IA is stuck with only there frist city, so game isn't fair to play.
Again a new mode whith good idea, but not test befor delivery, i had a bad feeling for a civ 7 ...

[Sarisin]

I play at Epic speed at only Prince difficulty. I cannot imagine those who play at Marathon at a higher difficulty with the Zombie mode enabled. My hat is off to you.

In my current game I set Domination as the only win condition and I am finding it impossible to get there. I was able to take out 2 of the 10 AI civs (enormous Pangaea map) but I am stalled now because the Zombies are just too much. Again, I have one city where every time a Zombie dies, either by me killing one or Zombie suicide where it slams in the city walls until dead, it is replaced next turn by another. I have assembled a good defensive force made up of Bombers, Zombie Armies (created using Apostles with the capture barb promotion), Modern Armor, Vampires and an assortment of Range/Seige units.

I am in a loop though now where I cannot do anything but keep repeating the same kill zombie-zombie replaced-kill zombie cycle each turn. I am unable to muster another invasion force to take down an AI Civ. The maintenance required to defend against Zombies and the Zombies that appear near the AI Civ and attack me have me stuck in this limbo.

Again, if anyone has been able to win a Domination Victory using Zombie mode, please let me know your strategy.

[Akadai]

I've done a domination only, zombie game and won. Huge map, marathon, King difficulty (monopolies and secret society enabled).

The start of the game was by far the most difficult. WIthin the first couple turns I had barbs and zombies assaulting my capital. Because I'm a conquest player, I purely focused on military and try to get archers as quickly as possible, as they are always the key to winning early wars

The way zombies and usually barbs work is they will always attack. You should never attack them in turn. Just put your units in defense. This gives your own units a buffer. By not attacking, your unit will recover health on the next turn while in defense mode, but because the zombie/barb is actively attacking, they will not recover. You will effectively out last them in this way. Better to do this inside your borders, because you recover more health. Barbs will sometimes run away which can be killed off later, but zombies wont

I typically have a ranged unit sitting behind my melee unit with another on standby incase their health gets too low. I switch them out and have them recover behind the lines. Your city can also be used to take advantage of this. A unit in the city will still recover, while the city it self takes damage. This gives a unit low on health time to heal while your city takes the blunt of it

This is pretty much how I had to deal with zombies at the start. I was also lucky enough a city state spawned somewhere around 10-15 tiles away who ended up helping a bit. As for the rest of the game, if you want to be focused on conquest, you need a strong economy. By the end of the game I had a military strength of 3000 and was making 800 gold per turn. I had over a dozen cities, with all my land protected as well as an invasion force. Zombies and barbs were nothing more than flies to be swatted, and the AI was so dumb most of their military was non-existent and their lands filled with barricades instead of improvements

AI just could not handle zombies which made taking them out all the more easier. Although the start of the game was the hardest I ever played, it also ended up being the easiest domination I had ever played

The barricades did slow my progression, however I discovered that vampires recover to full health when they pillaged them. So I simply marched them in, ate the damage, and full healed the next turn

[Sarisin]

Wow, thanks. There is a lot of useful information here that I will try in my next game. A couple points/questions if you don't mind.

1. I have to hand it to you on your settings as it is close to what I play: Enormus (land map), Epic, King or Prince. I also select secret societies and monopolies, but also Barb Clans.

2. I like your strategy on defense and it works for me up to a point. Here is the problem I run into - Zombies spawning the very next turn in the same spot they died. So, what happens unless my unit is very powerful, the Zombie brings down my units defense points while dying and suddenly another full health Zombie is in front of it again the next turn. If you have a support unit as you mentioned it might work, but I find after 2-3 hits my unit is down to minimal health and I have to move away or hopefully find another unit with full health to replace it. That's why I try to bottleneck the Zombies in choke points if possible so I CAN have a range support unit and/or replacement unit standing by.

3. You sound like you did some great planning assembling your invasion force while still minding the homeland against the Zombies. The problem I have is those Zombies seem to pop up anywhere on the map (not just in fog of war) and they are hard to defend. I found especially annoying that they pop up on Trade routes and unable to control the caravans they are often pillaged. I try to get the card that protects trade routes from pillaging if I can.

4, You are right about how the AI handles Zombies. In my current game I am finding most City States are wiped out and AI civs are down to their Capitals (this is enormous map now). So you would think the Domination victory would be rather easy. However, I have about 25 cities and getting my invasion force anywhere while leaving some territory undefended is difficult.

5. Thank you for the info on barricades, traps, etc. Do you find the AI building these while pretty much ignoring tile improvements and military units? I am seeing this in all my games. And it is annoying to get units (Vamps would be good, but I actually had my first Vamp DIE and not resurrect because I left it adjacent to a barricade too many turns). Once I get bombers though (admittedly very late) I am ready to roll by bombing those barricades.

Thanks again for your reply and especially your strategy!

[Akadai]

I don't recall a enormus land map setting, unless that's a mod. Huge is the highest I've seen

I haven't actually tried the barb clans mode yet, mainly cause it didn't interest me. I don't like the idea of one suddenly becoming a city state, or making some sort of deal with them either. Or have someone else take advantage of them for that matter

I did have on occasion zombies spawning in spots I really did not like. In those areas, I made sure to increase any defense effort. I had one situation where I took a Civ capital that had anywhere between 2-4 zombies spawn EVERY TURN. It was madness. However it was a coastal city, so I re-directed more of my navy to defend the town from the shores. I took note of where exactly the zombies were spawning and built military compounds to help defend in spots where ranged units might have difficulty. Once built, I parked another range unit on the compound. So with just 2 ranged units, you get 4 ranged attacks (one from the city, and one from the compound)

They did eventually stop spawning so much there, but only after quite a while. Also note, zombies don't go in the water (unless you control them I guess). So you can have your units use that to run away if need be

I take great care in making sure units don't die. I really hate losing any unit really, because I like to conquest. And part of that is making sure units are getting promoted. Zombies just made a better situation for my units to gain xp, as I typically like to farm barbs. Saving promotions for a cheeky heal is also good. That being said, I did lose more units in this game mode than any other

As for the city state I mentioned that spawned not too far from me. I had a trade route going to it, which did get pillaged a couple times by random zombies coming from the north of my area (a snow area I didn't care about). I noticed they liked to spawn up there and sneak down to kill my trader now and then. After I got wise to this, I stationed a couple units to help protect the trade route. This is when I noticed that zombies seemed to also have an aggro radius. They do just sit there doing nothing until something enters their vision. This becomes more apparent once you unlock observation balloons

As for planning my invasions, an invasion force didn't really need to be that large. Most of my military was being used to defend my land. But because the AI had such little (or no) military, it didn't need to be very large. I'm a patient person. I just hit one city at a time. Typically I'll always raze a city if it's too far from my main land. I'll keep it if it's pretty well built, or if there are nearby resources I really want. I'm almost always pumping out units though. A single turn for me takes several minutes due to my massive army. I will always have 1-2 cities just focus on building units

The AI was just really bad at keeping up a military. Too little focus on improvements, they seem to have an issue with luxuries with monopolies enabled (so I read). I did read about vampires dying to barricades, so I made sure that didn't happen. Though I do see a lot of times they lack in military even in normal game modes. That might be partly because I overkill on military. I will always strive to have a higher military strength than any other empire, and I have no issue with marching everything onto someone to destroy their production. I also find the AI to be very predictable

If they DO have a military, they will almost always send it after you in a war. Which means all I have to do is just wait and weed them out when they approach. A player however can account for long build times on Marathon and makes sure they have backup units being built. An AI wont. Once their main force is dead, they will never be able to reinforce in time

[Astasia]

Zombies do not respawn, once you kill them they stay dead. When a zombie kills a unit it turns into a zombie. When any other unit kills another unit it has a chance to turn into a zombie after a duration, this can be between 5 turns and 150 turns. The chance at 5 turns is 20%, then 40% at 50 turns, 40% at 100 turns, and 20% at 150 turns. So a unit dies and disappears and 5-150 turns later you might see zombies suddenly appear on the tile, that might be why some people think they respawn or why you think there are "ghost zombies" showing up without reason. A barb camp or some scouts may have died in that area many turns earlier and are just now popping up as zombies.

Once you and the AI expand enough and push out barb spawns then zombies mostly disappear from the world. You get a few spawning during wars, often staggered and not much of a threat.

[Akadai]

Zombies do respawn. Killing a zombie and losing no units at all, ever, in the area, will still cause a zombie to spawn in the exact same spot it died in turns later. I had numerous locations where I could predict zombie spawns. Even in places where NOTHING ever died, except the zombie it self. That, I would consider "Respawning"

And just because you get rid of barb camps, doesn't mean you get rid of the zombies too. Yes, they spawned with zombies, but zombies would still spawn on their own without barb camps. Hell I've had them spawn right inside my borders in plain sight, again, where nothing ever died. But that same zombie would spawn again some turns later

Another thing I forget to mention in any of my posts, is recovering an artifact will also spawn a zombie the very moment you collect it. Surprised me the first time and thought it maybe a coincidence, but after recovering several more, it happened every single time

Several people have already confirmed that using the dark arts to control zombies, counts as killing said zombies, causing them to spawn again later. I've seen this happen to great effect in one of the Yogscast Civ 6 multiplayer streams. It's even more apparent on faster game speeds, less so on slower game speeds

[Aachen]

For what it’s worth, though a zombie spawn when extracting an artifact is very common (to the point I also thought it was guaranteed), there’s a chance it doesn’t happen.

[Baby Nurse - high AF]

Originally posted by Sarisin:

Has anyone attempted or been successful in a game with a Domination Victory with the Zombie mode enabled? I have tried it playing at Prince with a number of leaders and have not gotten close.

yeah.. Deity with Tomyris and vampires.. pretty easy, as all domination victories as soon as you start to snowball

edit: and I play standard speed on a small map. otherwise the games last way too long and I have a lot of cities to manage in the end

[Astasia]

Originally posted by Akadai:

And just because you get rid of barb camps, doesn't mean you get rid of the zombies too.

It really does, for all intents and purposes. Because zombies don't respawn and don't magically spawn out of thin air, it mostly comes down to only wars generating new zombies in any quantity and again those spawns are usually staggered and die pretty fast. By mid game zombies mostly disappear from the world much like barbs, which is pretty unfortunate as they are a fun mechanic to deal with early game.

[PhailRaptor]

Originally posted by Astasia:

Originally posted by Akadai:

And just because you get rid of barb camps, doesn't mean you get rid of the zombies too.

It really does, for all intents and purposes. Because zombies don't respawn and don't magically spawn out of thin air, it mostly comes down to only wars generating new zombies in any quantity and again those spawns are usually staggered and die pretty fast. By mid game zombies mostly disappear from the world much like barbs, which is pretty unfortunate as they are a fun mechanic to deal with early game.

I'm just going to repeat again -- your experience appears to be 100% polar opposite of what I have personally witnessed, and what I have observed watching streamers play the game. In situations where the only thing that has died is a zombie, a new zombie spawns on the exact tile as little as 2 turns later.

[Akadai]

I'm not even going to bother arguing this one. I'll stick to tips. Someone claiming zombies don't respawn is just absurd to me and clearly lacks observation skills

[Sarisin]

Yeah, I am a little befuddled as to the actual HOW Zombies spawn as it is inconsistent, but they do respawn. I mentioned in my original post that killing a Zombie should not cause another to spawn in the same spot the very next turn. I also mentioned this happening 50 times before I grew tired of it and move my units away from the choke point I had on the re-appearing Zombie.

I think if you add the Barb Camp mode to your game with Zombie Mode it would be more difficult. For one thing, each Barb camp is spawning a Zombie with the obligatory Scout and other Barb unit. If you take out the Barb Camp that will be three Barb units to deal with and will cause more Zombies.

I know the majority of Civ players stay away from Zombie mode, especially the purists who feel Civ is no place for Zombies, Vampires, Heroes, etc. I enjoy using the mode though because it really creates a game within the main game. Again, some prefer no wars or battles in Civ, but for me, I want them as much if not more than the other Civ features - religious, social, science, econ, etc. In a way it is almost like playing chess with the Zombies except in chess pieces you take off the board don't re-appear back on the board the next turn.

As I said, the only thing I might change is to have Zombies appear only when a unit other than a Zombie is killed. When you kill a Zombie it is dead and does not re-spawn in the same place or elsewhere on the map.

In my current game I had a pack of 8 Zombies attack my Capital. I had only an archer in the city and had to just wait it out. Fortunately, they could not destroy my Capital or pillage. After about 50 turns they finally stopped re-spawning and after the last few suicided on my city walls they went after a nearby city-state that didn't last long.