Kublai Khan Special Ability

[psychoticbob]

Kublai Khan's special ability says that we receive a random Eureka and Inspiration when establishing a Trading Post in another civilization's city for the first time. Seems pretty simple.

Except...

I am only receiveing a random Eureka and Inspiration when establishing a Trading Post FOR THE FIRST time in another civilization. I have established Trading Posts in every city of three separate civilizations that neighbor me and ONLY received a random Eureka and Inspiration for the FIRST Trading Post in each. Subsequent Trading Posts award nothing.

Shouldn't I be receiving a random Eureka and Inspiration for EVERY Trading Post I establish in another civilization's cities? Even if it is just the first time per city? Not that I have had the need to re-establish any Trading Posts.

Receiving a random Eureka and Inspiration just the one time per civilization makes this special ability essentially useless and Kublai Khan a complete waste of time to play.

Another disappointment to add to the LONG list of disappointments regarding Civ 6.

[Dr Duh]

You stated it yourself in your first sentence. Working As Intended. Can't tell for sure if you're acknowledging that and just complaining that it should be more powerful, or if you're thinking it's a bug.

[psychoticbob]

Originally posted by Dr Duh:

You stated it yourself in your first sentence. Working As Intended. Can't tell for sure if you're acknowledging that and just complaining that it should be more powerful, or if you're thinking it's a bug.

As written, "...when establishing a Trading Post in another civilization's CITY for the first time" means EACH city for the first time NOT just the first city of that civilization for the first time. We should be receiving a random Eureka and Inspiration EVERY TIME we establish a Trading Post for the first time in EACH city of another civilization.

But instead, at least in my game, we are only receiving a random Eureka and Inspiration for ONLY the first Trading Post established in ANY city of another civilization and then no more random Eureka and Inspirations for other Trading Posts established AFTER that first one for the first time in other cities of THAT or any other civilization.

If we were getting a random Eureka and Inspiration for EACH Trading Post established for the first time in another civilization's cities as written in the description then Kublai Khan's special ability really would be something to promote. But since it is ONLY granting ONE random Eureka and Inspiration per civilization REGARDLESS of how many Trading Posts are established then the written description needs to be reworded to reflect that. Or fix it so that we are getting a random Eureka and Inspiration for EVERY trading post established in another civilization's cities for the first time.

So, yes, I am reporting this as a bug. Either the ability itself or the misleading written description of the ability. One or the other needs fixing.

[Dr Duh]

I suppose they could have worded it even more carefully, but since a trading post is _established_ ONLY the first time you visit a city, clearly "for the first time" only has meaning if it refers to the first time for that civilization.

[Lemurian1972]

Text as written-

Gain an additional Economic policy slot in all Governments. Gain a random Eureka Eureka and Inspiration Inspiration upon first establishing a Trading Post in another major civilization's city.

You're parsing it incorrectly. This wording is consistent with other abilities in the game and working as intended, giving 1 bonus per each other civ.

As for whether the ability is good, that's subjective. I feel it's decent. Certainly better than Russia's similar ability. In a Standard game where you make an effort to trade with everyone once, you net a bonus roughly equal to earning 32 different Eurekas and Inspirations as China, and all you have to do is send out trade routes to get it.

[Lemurian1972]

Originally posted by Dr Duh:

I suppose they could have worded it even more carefully, but since a trading post is _established_ ONLY the first time you visit a city, clearly "for the first time" only has meaning if it refers to the first time for that civilization.

Correct. First modifies civilization not city.

[JerBeware]

Originally posted by Lemurian1972:

In a Standard game where you make an effort to trade with everyone once, you net a bonus roughly equal to earning 32 different Eurekas and Inspirations as China, and all you have to do is send out trade routes to get it.

Where are you getting the 32 from? Most of my standard games have 7 other leaders (along with additional city states)?

Also, in my games usually a leader and a few city states are eliminated before I meet them. It also is a pain trading with anyone not on your continent in the early game and does take a bit to get multiple trade routes going.

[psychoticbob]

Originally posted by Lemurian1972:

Text as written-

Gain an additional Economic policy slot in all Governments. Gain a random Eureka Eureka and Inspiration Inspiration upon first establishing a Trading Post in another major civilization's city.

That is NOT the text as written. The text as written is:

Gerege. One extra Economic policy slot in any government. Receive a random Eureka and Inspiration when establishing a Trading Post in another Civilization's city for the first time.

If we are meant to receive ONLY one Eureka and Inspiration PER civilization then the text should read: "Receive a random Eureka and Inspiration when establishing a Trading Post in another civilization for the first time." Leave out the word 'city.'

By having the word 'city' included it specifically means EACH city in a civilization. So, if another civilization has 9 cities and we establish 9 Trading Posts in that civilization then we should receive 9 random Eurekas and Inspirations for doing so, NOT just one. 31 cities = 31 Eurekas and Inspirations.

Receiving just one per civilization is useless and not really a bonus since it is so incredibly easy to get 90% of all the Eurekas and Inspirations without this ability if you just actively go for them. So the charm of this ability would be to build Commercial and Harbor districts ASAP and send out traders to start racking up random Eurekas and Inspirations ASAP and focusing on other aspects of the game instead of spending time going after the Eurekas and Inspirations.

Firaxis should either change the wording to accurately reflect the fact that we are receiving ONLY one random Eureka and Inspiration PER civilization, not civilization's CITY or fix the ability to accurately reflect the current wording so we can rack up as many random Eurekas and Inspirations as we can as quickly as we can.

Or add another bonus to GEREGE like a permanent +4 gold per turn for each Trading Post established in another civilization. On a huge map (which I always play) that's only +44 gold maximum per turn that could be earned which is chump change. And if not +4 gold per turn then how about a free builder unit with only one charge once the Trading Post is established?

[Lemurian1972]

Originally posted by nomadultimatum:

Originally posted by Lemurian1972:

In a Standard game where you make an effort to trade with everyone once, you net a bonus roughly equal to earning 32 different Eurekas and Inspirations as China, and all you have to do is send out trade routes to get it.

Where are you getting the 32 from? Most of my standard games have 7 other leaders (along with additional city states)?

Sorry for the confusion I was referring to regular China as comparison, which gets 10% additional on Eurekas and Inspirations. Thus 4 China Eurekas give a bonus equal to 1 free normal Eureka. So as you said, in a game with 7 other leaders, regular China would need 7x4= 32 Eurekas to get as much of a payoff as Kublai would from completing a trade route with each other civ.

[Lemurian1972]

Originally posted by psychoticbob:

Originally posted by Lemurian1972:

Text as written-

That is NOT the text as written. The text as written is:

Gerege. One extra Economic policy slot in any government. Receive a random Eureka and Inspiration when establishing a Trading Post in another Civilization's city for the first time.

If we are meant to receive ONLY one Eureka and Inspiration PER civilization then the text should read: "Receive a random Eureka and Inspiration when establishing a Trading Post in another civilization for the first time." Leave out the word 'city.'

By having the word 'city' included it specifically means EACH city in a civilization.

I agree you're correct about the exact text. I pulled from the wiki and shouldn't have. My bad.

You're still wrongly parsing the wording though. It doesn't matter if the word city is in there or not. 'For the first time' controls the logic here. As Dr Duh said, since you can't establish a trading post in a city more than once, the logic breaks if you try to read the phrase like you say. Trying to apply it your way makes the phrase 'for the first time' superfluous, and it isn't.

So then we go back to whether it's a useful bonus, and again we disagree on a matter of opinion. I will gladly take a free Eureka and Inspiration (saving me ~5 turns each, at minimum) The bonus is solid and works well with both civs it's available to.

I'd rather see more bonuses decently balanced like this, than outright OP ones like Bolivar or Menelik.

[JerBeware]

Originally posted by Lemurian1972:

Originally posted by psychoticbob:

That is NOT the text as written. The text as written is:


If we are meant to receive ONLY one Eureka and Inspiration PER civilization then the text should read: "Receive a random Eureka and Inspiration when establishing a Trading Post in another civilization for the first time." Leave out the word 'city.'

By having the word 'city' included it specifically means EACH city in a civilization.

I agree you're correct about the exact text. I pulled from the wiki and shouldn't have. My bad.

You're still wrongly parsing the wording though. It doesn't matter if the word city is in there or not. 'For the first time' controls the logic here. As Dr Duh said, since you can't establish a trading post in a city more than once, the logic breaks if you try to read the phrase like you say. Trying to apply it your way makes the phrase 'for the first time' superfluous, and it isn't.

So then we go back to whether it's a useful bonus, and again we disagree on a matter of opinion. I will gladly take a free Eureka and Inspiration (saving me ~5 turns each, at minimum) The bonus is solid and works well with both civs it's available to.

I'd rather see more bonuses decently balanced like this, than outright OP ones like Bolivar or Menelik.

I agree with what others have said. Based on their wording and by including the word city, it implies that each trading post you set up outside of your own civilization will trigger the perk. *shrug* Of course it's splitting hairs, but they made the text confusing/misleading at first glance.

I also agree, it seems like a more balanced and progressive approach to power balance, rather than just directly skewing it as other recent leaders do.

[psychoticbob]

Originally posted by Lemurian1972:

...you can't establish a trading post in a city more than once...

Except that you CAN establish a Trading Post in the same city more than once. It happens in every game.

You establish a Trading Post in another civilization's city or a city state. Then later that city is conquered or revolts which removes the Trading Post. Whether you now annex that city or someone else takes ownership trading to or from that city will establish a new Trading Post.

"...another Civilization's CITY for the first time." specifically means the first time Kublai Khan establishes a Trading Post in THAT city for the first time. Meaning that if you establish another Trading Post in THAT city again you do NOT receive the random Eureka and Inspiration. So if you manage to set up a Trading Post in every city in a given game, say 59 total cities, then you should receive up to 59 random Eurekas and Inspirations NOT just a total of 11, one for each of the other civs in the game on a default huge map like what I have experienced in my Kublai Khan (China) game.

Yeah, I agree with the "I'll take what I can get approach" which is par for the course with Civ 6 but it would be nice for Firaxis to deliver on what they advertise instead of hiding behind misleading/ ambiguous language.

[MikeNearLeigh]

The update videos always explain how the new CIVs work.