Nerf the Hwacha

[The Bored Chairman]

>Capable of 1-shotting units of the same era.
>Capable of 2-shotting units of later era.
>Spammy
>Does not take extra damage from Cavalry flanks, in fact, contests Knights, who are supposed to hard-counter these kinds of units.

Unit is actually OP. It's bad enough that Korea is already extremely strong with Science, they're basically invincible mid game.

[Sam Illingworth]

Agreed.

[Lady Crimson (RIP)]

I don't think they're that great on science, since you have to steer basically every district away from it and the city center.

In the hands of the A.I. it was bad, at least prior to the current update.

[Sam Illingworth]

In the game I just played it would pop up in forests (from the other side where I couldn't see it) and one shot my crossbowmen in the same turn. I dunno if it was getting extra movement from a policy or something or whether that's part of the Hwatcha, If it's the latter that's utterly ridiculous. It made fighting her an extremely annoying experience.

[Lemurian1972]

Less annoying than the Mina Geraes. But seriously, this is a common issue with UUs that are essentially arriving early.

The uniques that come early are a problem, as are the uniques that come late and obsolete quickly. I'd rather they come up with a comprehensive solution than deal with it case by case.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Originally posted by Sam:

I dunno if it was getting extra movement from a policy or something or whether that's part of the Hwatcha, If it's the latter that's utterly ridiculous.

The extra movement might have been from a Great General; the Hwacha doesn't have that much movement normally.

[Y'hate T'see It]

They are weaker than the unit they replace and can't attack after moving. Yes they're strong when they first show up but after you get field cannons Korea is at a disadvantage all the way to machine guns.

[Suisight]

Tech disadvantage is always crippling. If you can, wait it out. If you aren't entirely weaker (economically), you can still defend and catch up.

Maybe the deeper problem is the combat strength system with high damage sometimes being created by relatively little differences in strength. I myself would like some more extended fights and battle lines. But I am playing on marathon and I guess on smaller maps and higher speed, this could cause balancing problems with production. You don't want a situation where even advanced units can't kill the enemies units as fast as they are produced...

Also: archers also can two-shot crossbowmen under decent conditions. So that's not a singularity.

[The Bored Chairman]

Originally posted by Suisight:

Tech disadvantage is always crippling. If you can, wait it out. If you aren't entirely weaker (economically), you can still defend and catch up.

Maybe the deeper problem is the combat strength system with high damage sometimes being created by relatively little differences in strength. I myself would like some more extended fights and battle lines. But I am playing on marathon and I guess on smaller maps and higher speed, this could cause balancing problems with production. You don't want a situation where even advanced units can't kill the enemies units as fast as they are produced...

Also: archers also can two-shot crossbowmen under decent conditions. So that's not a singularity.

The issue is that the units that are supposed to be a hard counter to them (Cavalry) are not. The Hwacha deals as much damage as it takes on defense, and then your units are at its mercy, whereupon it kills you.

The problem is, obviously, that it is too beefy and powerful for a ranged unit. I can understand UUs having certain advantages over their replacements, but having such raw power with no weaknesses is absurd. It can't move and attack on the same turn? Big deal, just protect it and watch it delete entire armies single-handedly. On defense? Drop them in cities and you're invincible.

I'd like to reiterate (since this is an old post), that it CONTESTS units that are from later eras. Musketmen CANNOT fight this thing on even ground, despite:

a) attacking them in melee, where ranged units are supposed to be weaker.

b) being a later era unit, which is supposed to outclass previous era units.

Even Light Cav with the "Anti-ranged/Siege" bonus will have a hard time taking just one of these things down. The only real solution is to dogpile them, but of course, there's usually an army supporting them and forget taking cities if there's one of these things inside them.

The unit is supposed to help Korea's defensive play, but its raw power just overcompensates. Instead, give it its power buff if it occupies a city or district tile of an owned city. That way, it's not blatantly broken and properly serves its purpose as a unit.

[Suisight]

Originally posted by The Bored Chairman:

The issue is that the units that are supposed to be a hard counter to them (Cavalry) are not. The Hwacha deals as much damage as it takes on defense, and then your units are at its mercy, whereupon it kills you.

I get that. That's why I mentioned the combat system. raw strength is a major influence and modifiers could be more important imo.

Originally posted by The Bored Chairman:

The problem is, obviously, that it is too beefy and powerful for a ranged unit. I can understand UUs having certain advantages over their replacements, but having such raw power with no weaknesses is absurd. It can't move and attack on the same turn? Big deal, just protect it and watch it delete entire armies single-handedly. On defense? Drop them in cities and you're invincible.

I disagree on the problem analysis. Imo the 'problem' (I think it is not a problem as such, though) is that the unit is available early. It introduces, by design, a tech advantage. THat is a strong bonus. The unit itself is not good against technological equal counterparts (it is worse than field cannon). And it is always hard to fight against a higher tech level, yet alone attack. But one can defend against it, at least drag the fight out and then come at Korea with indutrial era units.

Originally posted by The Bored Chairman:

The unit is supposed to help Korea's defensive play, but its raw power just overcompensates. Instead, give it its power buff if it occupies a city or district tile of an owned city. That way, it's not blatantly broken and properly serves its purpose as a unit.

I think it is supposed to create a dynamic flow by creating a tech disparity. It is not by design a defensive unit only. At least I don't see that in any of its special abilities. The early availability, however is a clear hint: Shake up things a little and create a challenge for Korea's enemies (withstand, tech up and hit back) and Korea (make the best out of the limited time).

[SkiRich]

Am I the only one that reads the threads' headline and thinks that would be a great SKA band name?

[Y'hate T'see It]

Originally posted by The Bored Chairman:

The problem is, obviously, that it is too beefy and powerful for a ranged unit. I can understand UUs having certain advantages over their replacements, but having such raw power with no weaknesses is absurd. It can't move and attack on the same turn? Big deal, just protect it and watch it delete entire armies single-handedly. On defense? Drop them in cities and you're invincible.

I'm confused why you think they're so powerful? Do you have any actual data to back up your claims of them "deleting armies"? Hwacha have 45 melee strength and 60 ranged strength. Field cannons (the unit they replace) have 50 melee strength and 60 ranged strength. Literally the only advantages Hwacha has are lower maintenance cost and the fact that you get them sooner. Everything from the industrial era will beat them in open terrain.

[Obiwan]

@Anomalous - OP was playing their fav "omg they are not OP" faction and got trumped in MP/SP.

Came on the forums to voice their lack of humility.

[The Bored Chairman]

Originally posted by Suisight:

snip

Ah, this explains it. I was on par with Korea on tech, so I was confused as to why it was so strong.

You're right, the problem isn't its strength, but early availability, which confused me as to why my units were performing so poorly against it.