Lady of the Reeds & Marshes Pantheon needs to work with all Flood Plains types

[jqpdev]

Update
Clarification/Qualification:
The following is being added to this post to further explain my points/ideas.

I would be happy with a bit of randomization where the pantheon offered a 1-2 production per floodplain tile bonus. The production bonus could be randomized per floodplain tile so some might get +1 and some might get +2 instead of a uniform +1 or +2. Also, the bonus is limited to the Civ who takes the pantheon. No other Civ would access (or see) the bonus without having the pantheon.  The randomization described above would happen one time so the bonus on flood plains tiles would not change by moving toward/away from them or by capturing/losing land and/or cities.  If a city or tile cluster were captured by a rival civ/city-state or freed for any reason (loyalty flip, revolt, etc) the pantheon bonus would not be carried forward or transferred.  In a way this change would behave similar to how policy cards act as modifiers, except in this case it would affect flood plains tiles.  This keeps the risk/reward contention in place.

The title says it all.

I spawned in a game as Egypt with 5 different rivers a short distance from each other. All are nearly surrounded by grassland-flood plains and plains-flood plains. There are at least 4 points where I could drop cities and grabbed 5 of those flood plains tiles. I was really disappointed when I carefully read the pantheon description and realized I was just hosed. 1 of the rivers has 2 join points with other rivers so I would have been surrounded by fresh water, flood plains and there were a few mountains scattered about. The appeal for more than half of the continent was terrible. However, 40+ floodplains tiles would have been mostly +3 production and 1/2/3 food, if the pantheon supported all flood plains types. I just re-rolled.


Guys please get this fix in the Aug 2020 update. This should be quick internal rule change and text of the pantheon changed.

[Gentlest Giant]

Sure, if the numbers got halved or nerfed even more.
Normal flood plains are common and useful. The pantheon is used to make terrible tiles decent, or quite uncokmmon tiles great (desert flood plains)

[talemore]

Floodplain isn't that great like you think because only egypt can build districts and wonders on them and marshes are able to be harvested and is mostly a loss of resources. Pop = Settler, still this game won't allow you to relocate a city like you could do in civ1 but it's possible to change that but I don't know if the AI can handle it because it's stuck on settler-spam

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Originally posted by talemore:

only egypt can build districts and wonders on them

Anyone can build districts on floodplains. Egypt's advantage is that floods don't pillage districts, buildings, and improvements on floodplains. That's a fairly basic piece of information, so seeing someone commenting on this forum who doesn't know that is strange. Do you even play this game? Steam doesn't indicate that you own it.

[Exemplar]

maybe he's playing without gathering storm? i dunno, but that is where the UA differs.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Originally posted by jqpdev:

Lady of the Reeds & Marshes Pantheon needs to work with all Flood Plains types

In Civ V I loved to play Netherlands and choose Lady of the Reeds & Marshes. The synergy was fantastic. Civ VI is significantly more limiting on the placement of polders, and Lady of the Reeds & Marshes is just no good. I still like Netherlands, because it has other advantages that make up for polders having a less prominent role in their gameplay, but LotR&M is just a total loss.

The reason is that there are other options that are just superior. If you start with a bunch of desert floodplains then you are better off selecting Desert Folklore, or even River Goddess, but generally there just aren't that many desert floodplains anyway. Boosting marshes is nice early, but generally there are not many of them and even if you have a lot of them they are doomed to be removed eventually because they have no long-term value (adjacency-boosted farms are far superior than a cluster of marshes with the pantheon boost). The boost to oases is good all game, because they can't be removed (and are good enough that you don't really need to put anything else in their place), but they are rare and having a lot of them means that you are stuck in a cluster of poor tiles dealing with sandstorms ripping up your territory.

So, long story short, I agree with you. LotR&M just can't compete with other pantheon choices, even after the recent boost. Extending the bonus to all floodplains would at least bring the number of boosted tiles up to the point that taking the pantheon would be worth considering if your first couple of choices were taken already.

[jqpdev]

@Gentle.Giant:
You are tripping.

@Talemore:
You are making my point by saying floodplains are not great. As I stated, in my game I had 5 different rivers loaded with flood plains types (grassland-flood plains and plains-flood plains). There was very little production along those 5 rivers. The Pantheon does not boost those tiles, but if it did then they would have been workable. As Egypt I would have been able to take advantage of her strength if the Pantheon benefited all flood plains types.

[Gentlest Giant]

Originally posted by jqpdev:

@Gentle.Giant:
You are tripping.

How, exactly?
Please explain how +2 production is balanced for a tile type so both common and useful as normal flood plains.
Compare to another situationally useful pantheon: +1 production for fishing boats.
+2 production is totally nuts.

Edit:To be clear, I think the current pantheon is very bad. I have never picked it, and the chances I ever will is fairly slim.
However, a bad pantheon is far better to the quality and health of the game than a very strong one. I prefer it being very bad rather than very good, since only the top picks really matter for game balance.

[talemore]

Originally posted by tempest.of.emptiness:

Originally posted by talemore:

only egypt can build districts and wonders on them

Anyone can build districts on floodplains. Egypt's advantage is that floods don't pillage districts, buildings, and improvements on floodplains. That's a fairly basic piece of information, so seeing someone commenting on this forum who doesn't know that is strange. Do you even play this game? Steam doesn't indicate that you own it.

I only have the basic game and I heard so much about the dlcs breaking the game beyond playable with giant death robots and vote exploits who make the player win without playing the game and some kind of loyalty vote on cities who simply decide to join their enemies and kill their friends and what I know egypt is the only one who can both build wonders and districts on floodplains

[jqpdev]

Update:
This post was edited for qualification and clarification.

Originally posted by Gentle Giant:

Originally posted by jqpdev:

@Gentle.Giant:
You are tripping.

How, exactly?
Please explain how +2 production is balanced for a tile type so both common and useful as normal flood plains.
Compare to another situationally useful pantheon: +1 production for fishing boats.
+2 production is totally nuts.

Edit:To be clear, I think the current pantheon is very bad. I have never picked it, and the chances I ever will is fairly slim.
However, a bad pantheon is far better to the quality and health of the game than a very strong one. I prefer it being very bad rather than very good, since only the top picks really matter for game balance.

Fresh game. Turn 1.
Egypt Start, Grassland Floodplains, NO Production[imgur.com]

If they made the Pantheon work with all flood plains tile types:
1 - You have to actually build up to it and selected (acquire enough faith to start a pantheon)
2 - The A.I. has been known to prioritize and snipe the top pantheons and beliefs, and on high difficulties the A.I. will have an easier time getting to those and sniping them.
3 - This pantheon's use is situational. See the picture above.
4 - There are other pantheons that will be much better in most situations regardless of a civ and/or leader bonuses
5 - Egypt is the only Civ that can build on flood plains and not take a hit when flooding happens. Every other civ will most likely avoid building on floodplains since they don't have the innate defense against flooding. I know dams provide defense against flooding. You have to build up to and be the first to construct a dam on a river.
6 - Limiting the pantheon to desert-flood plains means most likely there will be several/lots of desert tiles with almost no production.

[Changes Begin Here]
I would be happy with a bit of randomization where the pantheon offered a 1-2 production per floodplain tile bonus. The production bonus could be randomized per floodplain tile so some might get +1 and some might get +2 instead of a uniform +1 or +2. Also, the bonus is limited to the Civ who takes the pantheon. No other Civ would access (or see) the bonus without having the pantheon. The randomization described above would happen one time so the bonus on flood plains tiles would not change by moving toward/away from them or by capturing/losing land and/or cities. If a city or tile cluster were captured by a rival civ/city-state or freed for any reason (loyalty flip, revolt, etc) the pantheon bonus would not be carried forward or transferred. In a way this change would behave similar to how policy cards act as modifiers, except in this case it would affect flood plains tiles. This keeps the risk/reward contention in place.
[Changes End Here]

Again, if you look at the screen shot above there is no production. I would have to move my settler, at the start of the game, 3 hexes left or right and hope that there is a decent starting spot with production. So, unless you know of a way to get production out of those tiles at the start of the game its not worth settling there.

[jqpdev]

Originally posted by talemore:

Originally posted by tempest.of.emptiness:

Anyone can build districts on floodplains. Egypt's advantage is that floods don't pillage districts, buildings, and improvements on floodplains. That's a fairly basic piece of information, so seeing someone commenting on this forum who doesn't know that is strange. Do you even play this game? Steam doesn't indicate that you own it.

I only have the basic game and I heard so much about the dlcs breaking the game beyond playable with giant death robots and vote exploits who make the player win without playing the game and some kind of loyalty vote on cities who simply decide to join their enemies and kill their friends and what I know egypt is the only one who can both build wonders and districts on floodplains

Civ-6 Vanilla:
+15% Production towards Districts and wonders built next to a river. Floodplains don't prevent placement of districts and wonders.

Civ-6 Gathering Storm:
Districts, improvements and units are immune to damage from floods.

Civ6 Egypt Description[civilization.fandom.com]

I can get the adjacency bonuses, build districts 15% faster, and when the flood begins I don't have to worry about damage. If I'm not lucky enough to be the builder of a dam, I'm still in decent shape.

[jqpdev]

Originally posted by Exemplar:

maybe he's playing without gathering storm? i dunno, but that is where the UA differs.

I have Gathering Storm.

[Gentlest Giant]

What do you mean by no production? On the flood plains? Of course not. We are not arguing what basic flood plains does, are we?
If you are claiming that the city itself will produce no production, come on. There are several hills close by and even a 2/2 forest you could claim right away by moving 1 turn. (Although I'm not sure what the point is regardless.)
I suppose you might be arguing that basic flood plains are bad tiles that really need a boost through the pantheon?

Anyhow, I think your screenshot supports my point that +2 production from the pantheon applying to basic flood plains would be unreasonably powerful. Just look at the number of tiles affected!

[Exemplar]

Originally posted by jqpdev:

Originally posted by Exemplar:

maybe he's playing without gathering storm? i dunno, but that is where the UA differs.

I have Gathering Storm.

yes, tempest was replying to talemore, and i was subsequently replying to tempest about that reply. i don't always "quote" when the discussion logically follows, but looking back after a conversation matures, i probably should have.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Originally posted by Exemplar:

Originally posted by jqpdev:

I have Gathering Storm.

yes, tempest was replying to talemore, and i was subsequently replying to tempest about that reply. i don't always "quote" when the discussion logically follows, but looking back after a conversation matures, i probably should have.

Actually, I'm the one who should apologize for confusing/detailing the thread.

Originally posted by talemore:

I only have the basic game and I heard so much about the dlcs breaking the game beyond playable with giant death robots and vote exploits who make the player win without playing the game and some kind of loyalty vote on cities who simply decide to join their enemies and kill their friends and what I know egypt is the only one who can both build wonders and districts on floodplains

I understand now. Sorry for calling you into question, both because I shouldn't have done it and also because I was wrong. I forgot that floodplains and all things floodplains-related had changed so dramatically post-Gathering Storm, which in hindsight seems obvious.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Originally posted by Gentle Giant:

How, exactly?
Please explain how +2 production is balanced for a tile type so both common and useful as normal flood plains.
Compare to another situationally useful pantheon: +1 production for fishing boats.
+2 production is totally nuts.

Edit:To be clear, I think the current pantheon is very bad. I have never picked it, and the chances I ever will is fairly slim.
However, a bad pantheon is far better to the quality and health of the game than a very strong one. I prefer it being very bad rather than very good, since only the top picks really matter for game balance.

You make a good point, +2 to all floodplains is potentially very powerful if you start with a lot of them. Still, I think having the bonus apply to all floodplains is an important part of making the pantheon worth taking at all. For example, I'd rather have +1 to all floodplains, marsh, and oases, than have +2 to oases, marsh, and only desert floodplains.

Also, the +1 production for fishing boats is fairly weak too, although I do take that one with naval powers because getting at least some extra production from water resource tiles is better than nothing.