Deity too easy? (Let's talk about AI)

[Et de Ratanabá]

Is it not so hard as it supposed to be for you guys too? I mean if you are warmonger, specially if you pick Sumeria, Scythia, Nubia or Persia, go for early wars, conquer 2 civs. Then, on mid game you expand and conquer 2 more. Game is won by 1300 AD and it gets boring, there's no challenge.

If you try a peacefull game, i'd say it's not possible to win, except going for the religious victory.

Almost 1500 hours of Civ V here and there i used to play mostly on Emperor and on Immortal lately. But on Civ VI the AI is very stupid at wars! Seems like going for war to them is just like trading Marble or Tobaco. They clearly don't measure the consequences. Romans declaring war on me, trying to invade a city with Legions and Corssbowmen... while i had modern armours and artillery just one city away from their capital! Conquered them on a huge map in 10 turns... then it gets boring. You can face all other civs togheter on deity... i hope it improves on Rise and Fall.

[Skeev]

Originally posted by Felipe:

Originally posted by Toadman:

One AI stupid thing I can't een fathom is when you are sieging a city and the units guarding the city don't attack out of the city.

I was invading an isolated australian city by water and they had a sub stationed there for 3 or 4 turns that it took to capture the city. It could attack my invading troops but didn't and died with the capture. I've reported this. That's the best we can do to help them and the game, otherwise they may never know those issues.

I think (I have actualy no Idea how the AI exatly is implementd) that the AI handle the movements by fields.

"Oh I can attack ranged." attack ranged.
"I know that one field can only has one Unit at the same time. So I can't attack a second time, except my Unit has an extra promotion. Do my Unit has one? No. I'm done"

I think the AI has only option to use ranged Attack only one per field (and the first action in a city is to attack by citys Ranged Attack). So the AI don't even try to check of there is any possibility to attack a second time.

Curious, the same problem was in Civ 5 by realese (I rember). I don't why they have it in the game again.

My theory is, that they have just kinda recycled the Civ5 Vanila AI for Civ6, maybe.

[Despiser]

Originally posted by Skeev:

Originally posted by Felipe:

I've searched about alpha nad seems it comes before beta, which is logical. However, the 7 days to die had something before the alpha... just asume i'm meaning the last stage before official release, i migh have mixed. I've participated of the official Civ 3 Conquests expansion beta testing, so i've seen many issues and fixes while it was being developed, was very nice to be part of that.

As i said up there, they had their issues but i can't remember the AI starting as bad as on Civ 6. Why? I never gone for deity on previous games, even on vanilla. It only happened on Civ 6 because the AI is currently faulty on some aspects.

Alpha is a verson that is played inside the develepming crew.
Beta is played by some ppl outside of the corparation.

Originally posted by Felipe:

As i said up there, they had their issues but i can't remember the AI starting as bad as on Civ 6.

I understood this, but I can remember this. I told you about my pal, but I did it the same way (rushed them all in the beginging of the game with ease)
The difference bettween Civ5 and Civ6 is obviously the amount of features included in civ6. Civ5 (vanilla ofcourse) had nothing in it (exaggeration).

From civ4 to civ5 the problem was the complete overhaul of the battle behaiviour (no stack units, actual ranged units etc.)

From civ5 to 6 there are also some big changes (movement system changes the battle behaviour a lot, than there are the military camp districts etc.)

Yes, the Civ 4 stacks of doom made it too easy and boring. As far as rushing 1 warrior against the 5 or 6 enemies on deity then able to take the city... nah

[Et de Ratanabá]

Originally posted by terry:

Originally posted by Felipe:

We might have a genius here, congrats for him on beating a game with such complex mechanics on a difficulty level that required a lot of knowledge and micromanagement plus luck to even thinking on survive. I reckon this guy can't even go near Civ 6 or he might have a stroke.

LMAO, what complex mechanics? What micromanagement? CivV has always been a boring snooze-clickfest with 0 thought process needed.

On Civ V at higher levels you just need to build whatever is in your mind and press enter, of course! How come you Firaxis left Civ V so easy and just started Civ VI? No specialty cities, no resource trading and ofc, you just build a couple of random units, do a random tech research and rush to a knife-on-butter conquest! It's so obvious that no one could possible go wrong!

What i like most is that the AI have a huge advantage but once they face your mighty wits, it instantly bends to your will and the mere glance of yours raze their cities. If you've beaten Solitary, you're more than able to win deity on Civ V. That said, you can go now to Youtube and check some guys playing Civ V on deity, it's so trivial they can bake a cake while pressing enter to win!

( Just for fun, okay? Don't mean to offend anyone here :) )

[Et de Ratanabá]

Originally posted by Skeev:

Originally posted by Felipe:

I was invading an isolated australian city by water and they had a sub stationed there for 3 or 4 turns that it took to capture the city. It could attack my invading troops but didn't and died with the capture. I've reported this. That's the best we can do to help them and the game, otherwise they may never know those issues.

I think (I have actualy no Idea how the AI exatly is implementd) that the AI handle the movements by fields.

"Oh I can attack ranged." attack ranged.
"I know that one field can only has one Unit at the same time. So I can't attack a second time, except my Unit has an extra promotion. Do my Unit has one? No. I'm done"

I think the AI has only option to use ranged Attack only one per field (and the first action in a city is to attack by citys Ranged Attack). So the AI don't even try to check of there is any possibility to attack a second time.

Curious, the same problem was in Civ 5 by realese (I rember). I don't why they have it in the game again.

My theory is, that they have just kinda recycled the Civ5 Vanila AI for Civ6, maybe.

I think that's the agendas too because the AI+ mod made them spawn more units and settlers. Maybe the mod overriden a bit their agendas. And i think the AI gets the raw number of your army strenght and compare with theirs plus their allies to go to war, so they don't take into consideration that you are 2 eras beyond them, with a big treasure and already able to upgrade(or buy) current era units. Also i think the military strenght might be a little wrong because i've noticed some "strong" civs with many obsolete units. Maybe they should increase a bit the strenght over the promotions. The movements on a battlefield is an issue, i don't know if its a placebo i'm experiencing but feels like the AI+ enhanced it a bit too. I know they will eventually figure it out, they always do but i feel better providing some info as player that may be useful for them.

[Harris]

Originally posted by Skeev:

Maybe, just a thought.. some people don't play it that way. I for example don't care about warfare.

Then you force yourself into an unnecessary handicap. On Deity AI gets more cities from the start, more resources from the start, more military from the start, more production capabilities. AI will outpace you at wonder production because of the bonuses it gets.

The only way to get on even ground with such an AI is agressive military play and abuse of the fact AI, as mentioned before, is incompetent at using its advantages and lets you grab them easily for your own use.

And agressive military play is a frustrating endeavour, since even if the whole map is filled with AI's units, it has no idea how to properly use them and just let you kill them one by one. There is no pride to take from that. No sense of achievement. Therefore the only place military game really exists is multiplayer. And even there it is heavily influenced by who gets to make the first blow, which depends on rng and your internet.

That being said, my issue with religion, culture, science and gimmicks such as golden ages is that their role is to be decorations. My issue is that the whole team draws the art and only one person develops the AI, while it should be the other way around. And that instead of adressing the persistent issues we receive something different instead. Something not bad per se, but that is trying to take our attention away from what's really important.

I mean, what's the point of governors, loyalty and golden ages if the AI will be incapable of making effective use of this systems?

[Skeev]

Originally posted by Harris:

Originally posted by Skeev:

Maybe, just a thought.. some people don't play it that way. I for example don't care about warfare.

Then you force yourself into an unnecessary handicap. On Deity AI gets more cities from the start, more resources from the start, more military from the start, more production capabilities. AI will outpace you at wonder production because of the bonuses it gets.

Yes, but what is the point to play on deity when YOU get loose by taking a peacefull way anyway, and crush your enemys by a militaristic way with ease?

I mean the hard way to win is EXACTLY the reason why playing deity, or not?

[Et de Ratanabá]

Originally posted by Harris:

I mean, what's the point of governors, loyalty and golden ages if the AI will be incapable of making effective use of this systems?

I hope this phrase could reach the devs, that was my concern as well. Was watching an old vid(didn't find new ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=110&v=9EaY4W4kYjg ) and didn't find anything about the AI. So, the best we can do is letting them know, i think i will open a ticket with this topic link plus a resume of this discussion.

[ubik]

People have been complaining about the AI for practically decades. I don't foresee them suddenly improving it, if history is any guide.

[Harris]

Originally posted by Skeev:

I mean the hard way to win is EXACTLY the reason why playing deity, or not?

There is that thin line between hard and tedious, though.

[Skeev]

Originally posted by Harris:

Originally posted by Skeev:

I mean the hard way to win is EXACTLY the reason why playing deity, or not?

There is that thin line between hard and tedious, though.

You mean it to difficutl, so play an easier level ;-)

[Et de Ratanabá]

Originally posted by Skeev:

Originally posted by Harris:

There is that thin line between hard and tedious, though.

You mean it to difficutl, so play an easier level ;-)

There is that thin line between easy and tedious, though. lol

[Skeev]

Originally posted by Felipe:

Originally posted by Harris:

I mean, what's the point of governors, loyalty and golden ages if the AI will be incapable of making effective use of this systems?

I hope this phrase could reach the devs, that was my concern as well. Was watching an old vid(didn't find new ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=110&v=9EaY4W4kYjg ) and didn't find anything about the AI. So, the best we can do is letting them know, i think i will open a ticket with this topic link plus a resume of this discussion.

Well I don't think they would not implement any features without making the AI able to use it in any way (even if only in a very basic way)
I think you can't find it, because it obviously.

[Et de Ratanabá]

Originally posted by Skeev:

Originally posted by Felipe:

I hope this phrase could reach the devs, that was my concern as well. Was watching an old vid(didn't find new ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=110&v=9EaY4W4kYjg ) and didn't find anything about the AI. So, the best we can do is letting them know, i think i will open a ticket with this topic link plus a resume of this discussion.

Well I don't think they would not implement any features without making the AI able to use it in any way (even if only in a very basic way)
I think you can't find it, because it obviously.

There is no thin line between obvious and expectative. Here's hoping. The discussion here provided different perspectives on the matter which i will share with them via a ticket. My 2 cents

[Skeev]

Originally posted by Felipe:

Originally posted by Skeev:

Well I don't think they would not implement any features without making the AI able to use it in any way (even if only in a very basic way)
I think you can't find it, because it obviously.

There is no thin line between obvious and expectative. Here's hoping. The discussion here provided different perspectives on the matter which i will share with them via a ticket. My 2 cents

Yes but it's highly unlikely...

[Despiser]

I dunno skeev, maybe your mods are messing up the ai. It’s bad, but not THAT bad. 1 warrior against 6? Hmmm. I can win on deity, though according to you it’s the hard way. Still, I like to build wonders so stick to immortal. Spies can slow down culture and science victories. Military force if necessary. Too bad ai doesn’t go after leaders in 6 as it did in 5.