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Oor-tael Jul 15, 2018 @ 4:07pm
Anti-cavalry bonus against tanks ? Why ?
So I have just noticed that the pike & shots do pretty well against tanks thanks to a strong anti-cavalry bonus...
... Do I need to add that it is nonsense ? That it should not be ? When you are way behind in science, you can still defend very well against tanks thanks to thoses cheap units.
This is as inconsistent as it is unfair.

I think that Civ5 had solved this by having all the tanks (landship, tank & modern armor) be "armored" instead of cavalry. An elegant solution.
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Showing 1-15 of 26 comments
Oor-tael Jul 15, 2018 @ 4:07pm 
example : https://tof.cx/images/2018/07/16/356c1ba78a4e126de2670e9fc3d21fba.jpg
#1
gimmethegepgun Jul 15, 2018 @ 4:14pm 
Because balance. Realism makes for terrible balance and thus terrible gameplay.
#2
Oor-tael Jul 15, 2018 @ 4:30pm 
Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:
Because balance

Not true ! The tank already has it own counter : the AT crew. (same : the AT crew should not be anti-cavalry but anti-armor)
#3
SamBC Jul 15, 2018 @ 4:32pm 
In terms of game rules, armor is cavalry. It makes perfect sense as long as there's not uneven teching at a crucial point. And if the tech is much uneven, the anti-cav bonus isn't enough to swing the fight.

This way, we don't end up with weird doubling of promotions, or promotions that stop working after upgrading, and so on.
#4
gimmethegepgun Jul 15, 2018 @ 4:58pm 
Originally posted by Oor-tael:
Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:
Because balance

Not true ! The tank already has it own counter : the AT crew. (same : the AT crew should not be anti-cavalry but anti-armor)
Except that throughout the entire rest of the game, units from one era earlier are still reasonably effective at fighting the unit types they're strong against. Needing a same-era unit to fight them instead of being able to use a previous-era counter to them to a reasonable degree would mean that getting that unit just makes you win if you have any tech advantage.
#5
Oor-tael Jul 16, 2018 @ 2:55am 
I understand your arguments but that's the whole point of tech disruption. And that's what Civ5 offers without being unbalanced...

What's more, Pike&shots are so cheap that it is more unbalanced to have them resist so well with a bonus not deserved. Think about the corps of Pike&shots : same construction/price as the tank, but stronger. STRONGER. Nonsense !
#6
vkobe Jul 16, 2018 @ 8:09am 
pike and shoot is special force

so pike and shot=spetnaz, special air service, navy seal

so just imagine they are marines :^)

so just imagine than the rifle they carry is javelin missile ;^)
Last edited by vkobe; Jul 16, 2018 @ 8:19am
#7
vkobe Jul 16, 2018 @ 8:16am 
Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:
Originally posted by Oor-tael:

Not true ! The tank already has it own counter : the AT crew. (same : the AT crew should not be anti-cavalry but anti-armor)
Except that throughout the entire rest of the game, units from one era earlier are still reasonably effective at fighting the unit types they're strong against. Needing a same-era unit to fight them instead of being able to use a previous-era counter to them to a reasonable degree would mean that getting that unit just makes you win if you have any tech advantage.
not really, rifleman can easly crush knight and swordman are outmatched by knight
#8
Oor-tael Jul 16, 2018 @ 8:29am 
Originally posted by vkobe:
pike and shoot is special force

so pike and shot=spetnaz, special air service, navy seal

so just imagine they are marines :^)

so just imagine than the rifle they carry is javelin missile ;^)
Are you suggesting that I should use my imagination to accept a weakness of the game design ? One that is especially inconsistent, one that specifically kills the immersion ?
#9
Kyl Jul 16, 2018 @ 10:48am 
Originally posted by Oor-tael:
Are you suggesting that I should use my imagination to accept a weakness of the game design ? One that is especially inconsistent, one that specifically kills the immersion ?

Yes. That's what you are supposed to do with video games, especially a strategy based game like this, this is not a highly detail FPS or anything. The game developers have already decided on a system.

If you are really interested in some changes, I do understand that kind of feeling. I use mods to change the fog of war and also to automate Archaelogists. Your best option is to request a mod.
#10
vkobe Jul 16, 2018 @ 11:23am 
Originally posted by Oor-tael:
Originally posted by vkobe:
pike and shoot is special force

so pike and shot=spetnaz, special air service, navy seal

so just imagine they are marines :^)

so just imagine than the rifle they carry is javelin missile ;^)
Are you suggesting that I should use my imagination to accept a weakness of the game design ? One that is especially inconsistent, one that specifically kills the immersion ?
look them like marine and very skilled in guerilla warfare, so they trap your tank with ied

if peasant are able to destroy t72 or abram tank in iraq and syria with ied i suppose pike and shoot can does with ied

and i read in winter war pike and shoot was able to stop soviet tank in finland with molotov cocktail
#11
Oor-tael Jul 16, 2018 @ 1:10pm 
I'm confused : do you guys think that it is not a flaw, or that it is insignificant one ?

If you think that it is not a flaw, then what about Civ5, which has this tech disruption of armored units immune to the anti-cavalry bonus ? How do you explain that it works perfectly well, and everyone is satisfied about it ?

Now if you think that it is an insignificant flaw, then you contribute to lowering the standards of the franchise, and you're getting me depressed :steamsad:
#12
vkobe Jul 16, 2018 @ 1:17pm 
but we dont know which weapon they use or their tactics, you dont really need anti tank rpg or missile for that ^_^
#13
Kyl Jul 16, 2018 @ 1:22pm 
Originally posted by Oor-tael:
Now if you think that it is an insignificant flaw, then you contribute to lowering the standards of the franchise, and you're getting me depressed :steamsad:

It is an insignificant flaw. There are others as well. If you never upgrade units you will still have warrior units running around in Information Era. Someone on another thread said they just think of those units as not actual guys in loincloth with clubs that lived for over 4000 years, but just very poorly equipped modern guerilla fighters. Use your imagination, just a bit! It's just a game!

If a "Pike and Shot" unit is doing well against tanks, do you really have to insist on the game being unrealistic for saying that swords/spears > steel tanks running on combustion engines? Of course not! They could be guerilla fighters who make crude bombs or traps that disable the tanks.

My advice is to either 1. Use your imagination a bit and accept the game mechanics, 2. Wait to see if the devs make any relevant changes in expansion or patch, 3. Request a mod.

IMO no one is "lowering the franchies standards" here.
Last edited by Kyl; Jul 16, 2018 @ 1:30pm
#14
Oor-tael Jul 16, 2018 @ 2:28pm 
Originally posted by MadManCam:
IMO no one is "lowering the franchies standards" here.

I do think you are ! Civ5 did it better. So if Civ6 does it worse, we should use our imagination to be happy with it ? I'm not really fond of decline... :steamfacepalm:
And if you're still happy with this, then what's the next step for Civ7 ? A new loss of tech disruption... for the airplanes ? Come on. Seriously.
#15
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Sid Meier's Civilization VI > General Discussions > Topic Details
Date Posted: Jul 15, 2018 @ 4:07pm
Posts: 26

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