Religious units advice

[swfc_dan]

Just finished a game vs my brother, my first multiplayer game after only getting it recently. I won by religious victory, but he found out after that he should have just declared war on me and slaughtered my missionaries. I thought that only apostles can attack missionaries so wasn't worried, but now I've found out that other units can attack them when at war. I also read you can't link missionaries to combat units, so how would you stop them from being slaughtered easily at war. How can they be protected, or would you need to switch to just producing apostles which can attack in return?

It was a 1v1 game with only city-states, which made religious so much easier as I only had to convert 4 of his cities. I guess 1v1 games really eliminate science and culture victories, so is it always better to play with at least a few other civs (even AI's)?

[Aachen]

Since you cannot add religious units to a formation, they must be manually kept in position on militarily-occupied hexes. That will keep them from being condemned (term for being killed by a military unit).

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Originally posted by swfc_dan:

How can they be protected, or would you need to switch to just producing apostles which can attack in return?

Apostles can also be condemned by enemy military units, so don't make the mistake of thinking that they are safe.

Originally posted by swfc_dan:

It was a 1v1 game with only city-states, which made religious so much easier as I only had to convert 4 of his cities. I guess 1v1 games really eliminate science and culture victories, so is it always better to play with at least a few other civs (even AI's)?

If you are going to play 1v1 then I would suggest turning religious victory off, unless you want the game to be very focused around who gets to found the religion.

[swfc_dan]

Originally posted by Aachen:

Since you cannot add religious units to a formation, they must be manually kept in position on militarily-occupied hexes. That will keep them from being condemned (term for being killed by a military unit).

Hmm, seems odd that you can't just link them to a military unit then, no? Just makes it more effort to protect them this way.

Originally posted by tempest.of.emptiness:

Originally posted by swfc_dan:

How can they be protected, or would you need to switch to just producing apostles which can attack in return?

Apostles can also be condemned by enemy military units, so don't make the mistake of thinking that they are safe.

So apostles can only attack other religious units then I take it. Didn't realise that either but I guess it makes sense- as much sense as theological combat can make lol.

[Aachen]

Apostles, as mentioned, are merely another religious unit (albeit a strong one), so they can only engage in theological combat.

[zxcvbob]

You used to be able to link them. That was particularly useful for Spain. But religious unit spam was ruining the game with religious units occupying tiles and preventing your workers and military from moving in your own territory. So they moved the religious units to a different layer or plane or something, and that broke being able to link them to an escort. It also means you can't peacefully prevent you city from being converted by surrounding it with non-religious units. (you just founded your religion and don't have religious units yet)

[swfc_dan]

Originally posted by zxcvbob:

You used to be able to link them. That was particularly useful for Spain. But religious unit spam was ruining the game with religious units occupying tiles and preventing your workers and military from moving in your own territory. So they moved the religious units to a different layer or plane or something, and that broke being able to link them to an escort. It also means you can't peacefully prevent you city from being converted by surrounding it with non-religious units. (you just founded your religion and don't have religious units yet)

So is it best to send combat units along with religious ones, so that when/if that civ declares holy war against you, you can use them to protect them? I guess combat units would protect them outside the city, then just send in the missonary/apostle to spread religion.

Asking because I can't find much info elswhere about this and it seems a big deal as surely you could just get your religious units all slaughtered if someone suddenly declares holy war vs you.

[jonnin]

I don't know about 'best'. Examine how that might work. its a 1x1 so you are likely at war or soon will be. You get the only religion and start spamming. The other guy wants to kill your religious guy, but you put a unit with it. But you spent all your time making faith and he focused on science. So his 3 musketmen/knights come over and kill your horseman escort and then condemn your guy. You need to send more than 1 guy to escort and they need to be strong guys, in other words, as going deep into his area means facing all his troops, his archers, his city wall shooting, etc. If you send in an army that is just there to protect religion, your one and only advantage is speed. You outflank and convert, and it might work, but its high risk. I would personally grab the religion fast, then hold off on it and let faith build up while going for your army for a while. Later you can spawn a large # of religious guys and send them all at once, spread way out, possibly with an army as well, and sneak a religious win before he can defend. You can also pick off his outer cities and if any city states those too, or build closer to him, cut down food for a rapid population expansion, convert yourself and pressure convert him.

Im with the guy above, though. Either turn religion off or add 1-2 lowest skill level AI civs to the mix. Its not really 'right' with 2 people.

[swfc_dan]

Originally posted by jonnin:

I don't know about 'best'. Examine how that might work. its a 1x1 so you are likely at war or soon will be. You get the only religion and start spamming. The other guy wants to kill your religious guy, but you put a unit with it. But you spent all your time making faith and he focused on science. So his 3 musketmen/knights come over and kill your horseman escort and then condemn your guy. You need to send more than 1 guy to escort and they need to be strong guys, in other words, as going deep into his area means facing all his troops, his archers, his city wall shooting, etc. If you send in an army that is just there to protect religion, your one and only advantage is speed. You outflank and convert, and it might work, but its high risk. I would personally grab the religion fast, then hold off on it and let faith build up while going for your army for a while. Later you can spawn a large # of religious guys and send them all at once, spread way out, possibly with an army as well, and sneak a religious win before he can defend. You can also pick off his outer cities and if any city states those too, or build closer to him, cut down food for a rapid population expansion, convert yourself and pressure convert him.

Im with the guy above, though. Either turn religion off or add 1-2 lowest skill level AI civs to the mix. Its not really 'right' with 2 people.

Great advice thanks, very interesting hearing an actual strategy on how to play for a religion win. All the youtube vids I've looked for advice just give really basic explaining what the units do and how to gain faith, without actually explaining a strategy how to use them!

We are playing a 4P game now (2 AI's), still early so haven't decided on a strategy yet. But if I was to go the religious route again which I'm tempted to, how should I go about it with 4 civs around?

[jonnin]

Its exactly the same, you just have to convert the AI too. So you want to play nice and friendly with the AI. Also knock the AI out of the game fast -- the ONLY thing the AI is good at is religion, really, and there is a 90% chance one of the two sides will attempt to go heavy with it. So rush to discover the world, find them, and then as soon as they get religion, crush it. Then convert the city states; you need them to win anyway and now every faction is pressuring your bro on top of your attempts to convert.

Choice of faction can be huge for religion. If you want to go that route, pick someone who is a little better at it...

Other than that, just don't forget to defend against conquest. There won't be time to out culture or out science you to a win; religion is simply faster, but 20 club wielding goons will ruin your day if you are careless.

[ahueonao]

Converting hostile civs is tough, doubly so if you're at war with them, and triple so if you're against a human player, who will have a lot less patience for your shenanigans than an AI whose religious anger you can still offset by throwing them a bone some other way. I'd say the hardest enemy to convert is a large civ with a strong religion of their own and maybe a couple of civic or wonder-related religious buffs, since even if you manage to stay at peace with them you'll effectively be micro-managing a theological combat war, and it might end up committing your entire faith output and units for many turns, leaving your own cities (or foreign cities that you rely on) vulnerable to conversion in the meantime.

Converting a civ you're at war with but has no religion of their own is relatively easier, since you only have to flip most of their cities once - you only need enough units to make sure your apostles aren't killed, and depending on your enemy's size and your own religious buffs and apostle promotions, a single apostle could be more than enough to convert all the enemy cities you need to flip the civilization to your religion. remember that you only need the majority of their cities to convert, so you can pick the easiest targets (i.e. cities that already have some converts due to passive pressure, or smaller cities that are guaranteed to be a one-charge conversion).