'Invisible' negative AI relationship factors, and annoying post-war trading.

[Heisenberg Particulate]

I feel that the game should more clearly display the reasons, and to what degree, that the AI are using in-game to decide how they feel about you. Trade just gets thrown out the window if you are the slightest bit aggressive.

I managed to make an ally out of Trajan early. Long story short, late game, Teddy declares a surprise war and I raze 3 cities he'd parked on my borders and took the other 4 for myself (can't resist an extra 4 trade routes and the Colliseum).

Now I know everyone hates you taking cities/razing in any way, so I knew to expect backlash and what have you. as anything past self-defence is always viewed negatively. Trajan is still my ally, and before and after the war, it was showing a +40 something positive relationship. However, what's really annoying is that before the war, we had a sweet, long-running trade deal where I gave him 5 Luxuries he couldn't access, and he gave me 5 I couldn't find near me.

But after the war, with Teddy defeated, apparently even though it's showing zero change in our relationship status, he now refuses to trade evenly. It would take 6 Luxuries from me to trade for 1 of his. He still wants to refresh friend/ally status, but is now apparently not going to trade on even terms.

I don't mind, not exactly killing my Amenities, but it's silly that there's all these hidden relationship factors. I knew to expect a dip in trading fairness with non-allied/non-friended Civs, and perhaps a little from Trajan, but it's just silly at the moment lol.

[mangopurple]

there is a pretty good breakdown in the diplomacy screen. you have to click 'our relationship'

[Quevik]

The only one that i know is missing completely is the difficulty factor. Every level of difficulty over prince reduces your starting relationship with the A.I. by 1.

[mangopurple]

the diplomacy is still disabled though.

e.g., kongo at war with aztecs. i attack aztecs. kongo denouces me. halfwits.

[Heisenberg Particulate]

Originally posted by mangopurple:

there is a pretty good breakdown in the diplomacy screen. you have to click 'our relationship'

I'm sorry, but please read posts more carefully next time, although I know that's a big ask around here =D

I'll explain a bit more clearly - as I already said, the breakdown on the diplomacy screen is showing a +40 total positive relationship status. No negative relationship factors between us. He's happy, willing to declare as friends and enter an alliance - but unwilling to trade luxuries on the same basis as we did before the war. Trajan acts now as though we've got a negative relationship when trading.

America/Teddy declared war on me, Trajan entered the war with me as we were allies. We completed defeated America, razing 3 cities and keeping 4 cities. There was absolutely no changes in the status of my relationship with Trajan, the breakdown is exactly the same. However, post-war, due to me razing 3 cities, regardless of the fact that America was Trajan's enemy, Trajan won't trade fairly anymore. I know this is because all AI hate city razing - it just seems silly you can be allied, with them showing no negative relationship effects, and they increase trading demands massively.

Whilst we swapped 1-for-1, even trading, before the war broke out, he now wants 6 of my Luxuries to trade for 1 of his. Do you understand what I'm saying? Completely positive relationship, but because the AI have these 'invisible' negative factors not showing, I can no longer trade fairly. I expected this of unallied/unfriended Ai leaders, but when you fight a mutual war with an ally, it seems they receive a lot of hidden negative points against you.

It's just annoying - Trajan was happy to fight, take a city of his own from America, but because I razed 3 - the AI has now massively increased it's demands when trading - even though no change in our relationship occured.

[mangopurple]

sorry but you need to be more succinct rather than expect people to read your essays. it's the truth

[Paulytnz]

I get what you are saying about the hidden factors. But I am not sure how they could show it for trade.

It could also be that it has nothing to do with the war at all since the bar didn't go one way or the other. It could be because the time has ticked by and thus the trading agreements might deteriate due to that. We know tech costs and civic as well as district build costs all go up when time advances. So it would not be unreasonable as time ticks on the AI pushes harder trade deals.

It could also be that you are getting closer to a victory more than the other Ai's as well. So many variables.

[Quevik]

It's also possible that by taking cities (or a city), trajan no longer needs all the luxuries you offer. Maybe he has gained more ameneties himself, perhaps through other luxuries or entertainment buildings...etc.

[Paulytnz]

Originally posted by Quevik:

It's also possible that by taking cities (or a city), trajan no longer needs all the luxuries you offer. Maybe he has gained more ameneties himself, perhaps through other luxuries or entertainment buildings...etc.

This too, he could have met other civs and got some from trades with them as well. So many variables lol.

Oh I can tell you tho that no matter what the AI will always try to trade for luxaries no matter how high their Amenities is.

I say this because I got sick of the luxary situation in this game and adjusted my game so each luxary is worth 50 cities instead of 4. So this means basically any/every luxary resource I get (and I assume the AI) increases amenity in each of my cities by 2. Basically I never have to worry about it. Yet the AI still wants to trade with me no matter what.

[Tatanka]

AI trades there own luxuaries fairly if you dont need them, if your amenities are low or even negative however, they will trade em for very high.
That weird trading behaviour annoyed me too, untill i saw what was causing it. Theres also a hidden agenda where happiness is a factor.

[Heisenberg Particulate]

He's showing no extra Luxuries from the 1 city he took, the site is still pillaged. And he doesn't seem to be trading, he's denounced almost by all. The timing is too convenient to be anything else other than a hidden drop in relations.

I definitely think it's because he's reacted negatively to my city razing - but it isn't showing on the diplomacy breakdown screen because he's still trying to be allies. It seems to be that even though he wants to react negatively, he can't/isn't, but now trades like he has negative relationship with me.

Anyone else getting this? I don't usually end up late-game with a long-term ally, so this never usually comes up.

[Tatanka]

There is no warmonger penalty for taking or razing cities like it was in civ5. last game i wiped out three civs and ghandi who was sitting on other continent was my best friend.
You just have to wait for them to declare war on you and you do not get warmonger penalty with anyone even if you annihilate them.
was sitting next to america spain and england.
I kept chopping jungles down, and soon enough, america declares war. Exit america soon after.
Spain i sent a bunch of apostles, declares holy war, exit spain.
England started on small island and settled on my continent so that was easy, kept demanding stuff, ignoring requests and finally she declared war too.
A whole continent all for myself with zero warmonger penalty to the guys on other continent.

[Tatanka]

im telling you, the trade dropped because your amenities took a hit, probably from war and probabl;y negatives in the cities you took, thats why he doesnt want to give you luxuaries fairly, its not because hidden angry modifiers.
Its supply and demand, you need them, so you have to pay for them.

[Tatanka]

Its also something you need to look for. Your best trading opportunity is someone at war and especially someone at war with ghandi. Their amenties will drop like a brick and thats when they are willing to pay a massive amount for your luxuaries if they are not to angry with you.
I always love it when ghandi gets a war. Krtjing.

[Heisenberg Particulate]

I don't 'need' them though. My War-Weariness is now zero across the board, and all cities have at least 2 Amenities, some with more.

Checking an autosave before the war started - it's around the same level. With the addition of 2 uniques in American lands I hadn't acquired in my own, add to the amount of multiples in my own, the levels look like they haven't shifted.

We had been doing the same trade for hundreds of turns, it started when my Luxury and Amenity situation was actually worse, during a large expansion and growth phase.

[Heisenberg Particulate]

Well if it's really not happening to anyone else, must be a bug in this save then. I'll try and see if I can replicate it in my next game.

Doesn't matter at this point, pulling in almost 1k a turn. It's a little while before I can nuke them, so just making some rather fabulous cities.