AI cheating in Science?

[master_dave]

Is the AI blatantly cheating in science? I played a game where I'm Pachacuti. I have a higher population than Mathias, more great scientists per turn but somehow he has more science. WTF, is this blatant AI cheating?

[Kurosu]

What diff are you playing ? Starting from king the AI gets % bonuses to science/culture/faith ( and other things as well)

[Maya-Neko]

That's a common method to get the AI stronger beyond the capabilities of the AI. The amount of cheating in 8th difficulty is just ridiculous, but its still not enough to beat a human player who understood the game. From the perspective of the AI your ability to learn very fast is propably more cheating than just getting some bonus ressources.

[gimmethegepgun]

Are you saying they have more science per turn or that they are ahead in era? Because if it's the latter that doesn't mean they have more science than you. They may beeline a certain tech eras ahead without picking up the bulk of the techs in earlier eras and so their scientific era is ahead of yours but they're missing a huge amount of techs.

[Scroller]

In one of my recent games, I was generating as much science per turn as the two civs combined yet one was keeping pace technologically and the other was more advanced than I was. Even if it was getting every single inspiration, that still seems something of a stretch.

[Maya-Neko]

The AI is beelining quite hard most of the time, so seeing them on par or even beyond your technological level on the tech tree doesn't mean, that they're in front of you in terms of overall researched techs (as this only shows the most advanced researched tech so far). And as there are numerous Gateway-Techs throughout the tree that prevent players to ignore some parts of the tree for too long (the randomized tech tree is even way more aggressive with this) you should definitely be able to catch up at some point.

And also don't underestimate the advantage of being behind in science. The AI researches these new technologies with a penalty, when they're an era behind that tech level. The other way around you're getting a cost reduction, if you research techs, that are outdated. That said it's not that bad to have some AI civs being ahead of you until the mid game, so that you can research many things faster, than the AI did.

[Scroller]

In the game I referred to, I tried to steal tech boosts from the most advanced one (which seemed ahead in several aspects of tech) only to be told that it didn't have any. That same civ was offering batteries for trade whereas I was ages away from the required tech.

Originally posted by Maya-Neko:

The AI is beelining quite hard most of the time, so seeing them on par or even beyond your technological level on the tech tree doesn't mean, that they're in front of you in terms of overall researched techs (as this only shows the most advanced researched tech so far). And as there are numerous Gateway-Techs throughout the tree that prevent players to ignore some parts of the tree for too long (the randomized tech tree is even way more aggressive with this) you should definitely be able to catch up at some point.

And also don't underestimate the advantage of being behind in science. The AI researches these new technologies with a penalty, when they're an era behind that tech level. The other way around you're getting a cost reduction, if you research techs, that are outdated. That said it's not that bad to have some AI civs being ahead of you until the mid game, so that you can research many things faster, than the AI did.

[Nibbie]

Originally posted by Scroller:

In the game I referred to, I tried to steal tech boosts from the most advanced one (which seemed ahead in several aspects of tech) only to be told that it didn't have any. That same civ was offering batteries for trade whereas I was ages away from the required tech.

Originally posted by Maya-Neko:

The AI is beelining quite hard most of the time, so seeing them on par or even beyond your technological level on the tech tree doesn't mean, that they're in front of you in terms of overall researched techs (as this only shows the most advanced researched tech so far). And as there are numerous Gateway-Techs throughout the tree that prevent players to ignore some parts of the tree for too long (the randomized tech tree is even way more aggressive with this) you should definitely be able to catch up at some point.

And also don't underestimate the advantage of being behind in science. The AI researches these new technologies with a penalty, when they're an era behind that tech level. The other way around you're getting a cost reduction, if you research techs, that are outdated. That said it's not that bad to have some AI civs being ahead of you until the mid game, so that you can research many things faster, than the AI did.

"batteries"? If you have a resource called batteries in your game, it sounds like you are playing modded, and any potential issues become almost impossible to identify since mods can easily break the game in any number of ways.

[Scroller]

Not sure how adding tech into it would distort things so much. Particularly since that tech is well into the late game. It would make for a very odd kind of synergy if that were the case.

Originally posted by Nibbie:

Originally posted by Scroller:

In the game I referred to, I tried to steal tech boosts from the most advanced one (which seemed ahead in several aspects of tech) only to be told that it didn't have any. That same civ was offering batteries for trade whereas I was ages away from the required tech.

"batteries"? If you have a resource called batteries in your game, it sounds like you are playing modded, and any potential issues become almost impossible to identify since mods can easily break the game in any number of ways.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Originally posted by Scroller:

Not sure how adding tech into it would distort things so much. Particularly since that tech is well into the late game. It would make for a very odd kind of synergy if that were the case.

The point is that we, not knowing anything about the mod or mods you are using, have no idea how many other things your mod(s) may have added or changed. That means that we are not in a position to answer your questions about your situation.

For example: Does the AI cheat in science? We have no idea how much cheating the AI does or does not do in science when playing with your mods.

If you have just one mod then you could try asking the mod's author on the workshop page for that mod.

[Scroller]

My concern here was actually that, as soon as mods are mentioned, any other possibilities are disregarded. For instance, perhaps it is down to some tactic or aspect in the base game that I have either missed or misunderstand. For example: how much do the tech boosts actually make a difference? Could it simply be as ... well... simple?

Originally posted by tempest.of.emptiness:

Originally posted by Scroller:

Not sure how adding tech into it would distort things so much. Particularly since that tech is well into the late game. It would make for a very odd kind of synergy if that were the case.

The point is that we, not knowing anything about the mod or mods you are using, have no idea how many other things your mod(s) may have added or changed. That means that we are not in a position to answer your questions about your situation.

For example: Does the AI cheat in science? We have no idea how much cheating the AI does or does not do in science when playing with your mods.

If you have just one mod then you could try asking the mod's author on the workshop page for that mod.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Originally posted by Scroller:

My concern here was actually that, as soon as mods are mentioned, any other possibilities are disregarded. For instance, perhaps it is down to some tactic or aspect in the base game that I have either missed or misunderstand. For example: how much do the tech boosts actually make a difference? Could it simply be as ... well... simple?

Tech boosts do make a big difference. Generally speaking, if one civ gets no boosts and another civ gets all of them, then the civ with all the boosts is effectively generating 40% more science in terms of how many techs they will research. Assuming your mods do not change how boosts work, you should be trying to get as many of them as you can - provided doing so does not slow you down in other ways.

There has been a relatively recent change in the willingness of the AI to use special projects, including the science special project. That can have an impact on how quickly the AI is able to work through the tech tree, and also on how many great scientists they will earn. It can also be difficult to know how much of an impact that has had. For example, if you have twice the science output of an AI civ on turn 200, there's no way to know what amount of science output either of you has had in the earlier 199 turns. Perhaps the AI has been running a lot of science projects for the majority of the game, and actually has had an average science output that was nearly twice your average for that entire time, resulting in a tech lead over you. Then, on turn 200 it just so happens that the AI does not have any science projects running, and so its science output is deceptively low.

So, even if you were not using any mods, it would be impossible for us to conclude that the situation you have described meant that the AI was cheating at science. If we discount the expected cheating associated with difficulty level, the more likely explanation is that over the course of the game the AI has gotten more boosts and maintained a higher average level of science output, and so deserves to be ahead in tech. Your higher science now could be a sign that you are on the road to catching up, or it could be a clue that the AI is using projects to stay ahead of you.

[Scroller]

Thanks for taking the time. I think you could be on to something with the science projects - I don't tend to run them much in the earlier games. That, coupled with missing out on tech boosts, may actually explain a lot. Something I will have to experiment more with to be sure but it does help.

Thanks again.

Originally posted by tempest.of.emptiness:

Originally posted by Scroller:

My concern here was actually that, as soon as mods are mentioned, any other possibilities are disregarded. For instance, perhaps it is down to some tactic or aspect in the base game that I have either missed or misunderstand. For example: how much do the tech boosts actually make a difference? Could it simply be as ... well... simple?

Tech boosts do make a big difference. Generally speaking, if one civ gets no boosts and another civ gets all of them, then the civ with all the boosts is effectively generating 40% more science in terms of how many techs they will research. Assuming your mods do not change how boosts work, you should be trying to get as many of them as you can - provided doing so does not slow you down in other ways.

There has been a relatively recent change in the willingness of the AI to use special projects, including the science special project. That can have an impact on how quickly the AI is able to work through the tech tree, and also on how many great scientists they will earn. It can also be difficult to know how much of an impact that has had. For example, if you have twice the science output of an AI civ on turn 200, there's no way to know what amount of science output either of you has had in the earlier 199 turns. Perhaps the AI has been running a lot of science projects for the majority of the game, and actually has had an average science output that was nearly twice your average for that entire time, resulting in a tech lead over you. Then, on turn 200 it just so happens that the AI does not have any science projects running, and so its science output is deceptively low.

So, even if you were not using any mods, it would be impossible for us to conclude that the situation you have described meant that the AI was cheating at science. If we discount the expected cheating associated with difficulty level, the more likely explanation is that over the course of the game the AI has gotten more boosts and maintained a higher average level of science output, and so deserves to be ahead in tech. Your higher science now could be a sign that you are on the road to catching up, or it could be a clue that the AI is using projects to stay ahead of you.