Mansa Musa on deity, impossible or?

[Jin Shepard]

So Mansa Musa, his start is incredible slow, even without a AI mod to increase the number of units the AI has, the AI starting units combined with the rediculess slow start of Mansa Musa, it seems impossible?

Without any map settings to help me, no matter how hard I try, my start is so slow that I cannot keep up with a diety AI, with lack of buildings to construct, especially science districs, how do you guys do it? Anyone got a lets play of it?

I think Mansa Musa has to have more gold from the start to have a chance, perhaps 1g per hill tile of his capital to help gain a bit of gold early so you can expand and pay for units quicker.

Not yet figured out how to cover his lack of science though. Even paying them with faith and gold (Great peeps) by that time your probly already far behind.

[Despiser]

Deity is not just harder, it’s imbalanced as well. Immortal is lot more sensible and more wonder-friendly too.

[zorkman]

In reality, shouldn't deity be only playable by the really elite player, not every average & poor players like now,

[Jin Shepard]

I always play on Deity, and won quite a lot of them, but this CiV is so slow at the start, that it seems impossible to do, unless my build order is significantly bad ( possible).

[Jin Shepard]

Issue is also growth, yes it goes to +6 quick if you have 6 desert tiles but without floodplains near or anything like that it stays at 6 max, which means only 2 districts.

[Jin Shepard]

I've come to the conclusion, this civ needs help, it cannot compete in Deity and I am sure that online matches, this civ wont last long either, i mean if I came across this dude, I would know, he is far behind me for a few era's, better attack him now.

[OoOoOoooOOoOoorgle]

I think he'll have a different optimal build order than the typical Deity start. He's unique enough stylistically that it probably requires unusual beelining or something.

I won more convincingly than I have in a long time with him on Immortal, so I'd be surprised if he's completely unmanageable on Deity.

If I get time this weekend maybe I'll do several test starts and see whether they confirm your findings.

[Jin Shepard]

Yea, let me know!

[JuiceDay]

PotatoMcWhiskey on youtube has a playthrough as Mali where he was pumping out settlers constantly and had created like a network of 17+ cities, no war. It ended up being successful but it was behind for most of the game, and he got lucky with a huge empty area to expand and I feel like barbs must have been turned off or glitched and he didn't realize it.

I agree that it seems like a very difficult civ to get off the ground. Canada has a similar problem. I think that they are purposely challenging civs to use well.

[Y'hate T'see It]

Origineel geplaatst door Despiser:

Deity is not just harder, it’s imbalanced as well. Immortal is lot more sensible and more wonder-friendly too.

No amount of extra units or research/production speed will change the fact that AI doesn't know how to make complex strategic decisions. Human players can predict what the enemy is going to do and plan several steps ahead; AI acts purely on what's happening in the current turn.

[Gentlest Giant]

I've done it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'd say he is really strong. Start is slow but there are plenty of opportunities to convert his insane faith and gold to military to be used at your closest neighbour in classical and medieval ages.

[Jin Shepard]

Origineel geplaatst door juicefestival:

PotatoMcWhiskey on youtube has a playthrough as Mali where he was pumping out settlers constantly and had created like a network of 17+ cities, no war. It ended up being successful but it was behind for most of the game, and he got lucky with a huge empty area to expand and I feel like barbs must have been turned off or glitched and he didn't realize it.

I agree that it seems like a very difficult civ to get off the ground. Canada has a similar problem. I think that they are purposely challenging civs to use well.

He isnt p laying on deity on that playthrough but on Immortal, he also has map settings to help him (but don't know which, but I know at least a hot temp world )

Origineel geplaatst door Gentle Giant:

I've done it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'd say he is really strong. Start is slow but there are plenty of opportunities to convert his insane faith and gold to military to be used at your closest neighbour in classical and medieval ages.

Well tell me how, since if you have a civ next to you (highly possibly) he spawns out units, gets science, etc. You do not, first few turns you have a choice, use your gold on a settler, builder or trade unit, it is all a gamble, a builder can increase your gold per turn, a trade unit too, a settler not so much because at the start the town does not gain a thing, since there is barely any production, that first extra town can not do much at all.

So how was your build order, what was your strat, how close was the AI, what was your map settings, how many AI/City states, got a screenshot of some of your saves you can share?

[Salma Hayek]

I managed to win with Mansa on deity on my 3rd try, first 2 I got killed by warriors by turn 30/50 because yeah slow start. I feel like all we need to do is somehow survive the first 100 turns and then we're good. Important to maximise on the desert bonus for settling cities, be carefull/conservative at the start and get your slingers very quickly and don't be afraid to get too much of them, better be safe than sorry, defending the early game is the main challenge.

[Jin Shepard]

Iam still alive atm with 200 turns or so? But two civs are 3 era's ahead of me.. while i get like 600g per turn, i cant use it to boost my damn science, even buying great scientists isnt possible due to the cost, even with 600g per turn its to much! Not sure how iam gonna win this, especially since its continents map.. doesnt help!

[OoOoOoooOOoOoorgle]

I have a pretty good Deity game with him going currently. Everything on standard on a continents map. Should be on track to win religious victory, and this was my general early strategy:

I figured that early on, the best source of faith & gold is adjacency with doubler policies, and trade routes.

So my basic tech beelines were:

1. Astrology
   
2. Currency
   
3. Bronze Working/Archery

This way, after getting my main 2 districts, I start accumulating resources asap for Swordsmen, Horsemen, and Mandekalu Cavalry.

My early build order in the capital was Scout, Settler, Holy Site, Settler. Founded a pantheon with Desert Folkore to supercharge my faith output. At least 2-3 strong desert cities are critical to his faith start imo, but after that you can settle wherever.

I had plenty of faith output so I eventually ended up purchasing my prophet and founding a religion with Jesuit Education (later added Pilgrimage, Crusade & Mosques). With this setup, I can purchase all the buildings in my main 3 districts with either resource, which is ideal.

Since Mali's cities don't get penalties to constructing districts, those were always build priority in every city. Units and district buildings should be purchased rather than built, as much as possible.

For Desert cities, my district ranking was:

1. Holy Site
   
2. Suguba
   
3. Campus

Non-deserts did:

1. Suguba
   
2. Campus
   
3. whatever else

An immediate Golden Age was relatively easy to achieve by clearing a few camps and building a Suguba. I picked Monumentality, obviously, to spam out settlers & builders with faith.

....................................

My strategy regarding the nearby AI:

First settler went near Dido to my east to block her, then I showered her with trades to secure friendship. She eventually became my long-term ally for a Military alliance while I was fighting and later a Religious one for more output.

Eleanor was to my west and posturing with her warriors, so I pre-empted her by stealing a settler with my scout and levying a nearby city state (basic Amani plus one envoy, similar to the Matthias move). I used the free warriors to gum up and thin out her hordes while I purchased slingers and later upgraded them to archers. Eventually went peace after thinning her army, simply to build up my cavalry near her borders un-harassed. Eradicated her later by leveraging Crusade with an army of Horsemen and Mandekalus (most were purchased), and a few Swordsmen escorting Apostles/rams.

At that point I had a pretty big empire, but now Suleiman to the south was spamming Apostles from his religion at me. Couldn't have that, so I went to war with him while beelining Cuirassiers, because as it turned out Eleanor had been sitting on some decent Niter. That war dragged a bit more, but the same strategy using escorted Apostles and Crusade worked pretty well.

Apparently he had killed Yerevan earlier, but for whatever reason, its suzerain bonus has not worked since liberating it (has anyone seen that before?)

....................................

Anyway, everyone on my continent except Dido is dead at this point and right now I'm just spamming super Moksha Apostles across the sea. It's turn...175 right now, and nobody is even beginning to approach a competing victory. If Yerevan was working, this would be over quite fast, but meh, it's a good test for achieving this victory without the super-optimal Yerevan suz.

(edit: cleaned up formatting and hopefully less painful to read lol)

[OoOoOoooOOoOoorgle]

All right, post-game update and general thoughts.
I won Religious Victory on turn 214, it would have been much faster, probably pre-200, if Yerevan suz bonus hadn't failed to function after it was liberated. So that's a weird thing, I am using a few cosmetic mods (no gameplay affecting ones!) and it's possible that one of those was fiddly about it somehow.

Screenshot of the post-game victory state and my core cities:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1671326162

Prior to this game I ran ~30-40 turns of four different starts to gauge how his early game plays. This particular game is the continuation of the start which I judged to have the best choices for build order, tech, etc (as in the above post).

Here are the bullet point observations that I have from my recent games:

• Faith is a critical resource for him, therefore being deprived of a good desert start can screw him over. This happened once, where I started on desert, but it was just two lame tiles and then all grassland. I think a start like that is recoverable but very borderline.
  
• Trade routes are tantamount to production, so it's best to maximize capacity early and often. An early Monumentality golden age can get you started very quickly: build Sugubas everywhere, then purchase all the Markets & Traders with faith.
  
• His military start is initially bad, but once your economy is rolling, you can purchase so many units that even Deity AI won't be able to keep up with you, especially if you pillage their strategic resources and protect your own.
  
• I really enjoy the Crusade belief on him. That +10 bonus is massive on early game units and it turns his Mandekalu Cavalry into death machines against opposing cities. Try for a few Apostles with Translator to speed up city conversions (I had one or two with both Translator and Chaplain which was awesome for this strategy).
  
• As I mentioned, I did use a suzerain levy early on. As an economic superpower, I really like that play for him in early game while levying is still cheap. It levels the playing field for you against the free units of AI opponents.
  
• I am not entirely sure he could survive an early rush by a human player with a strong ancient UU like Gilgamesh's. That's not a problem unique to Mali, but he may have the hardest time mitigating it.
  
• Nazca lines are amazing for Mansa Musa. Had I known that city-state was in the game earlier (they were on the second continent), I would have planned my Petra capital better.

....................................

I think you could actually achieve several various victory types with him. If I wasn't trying to convert everybody I could have done much stronger empire-building using my faith exclusively to purchase units, district buildings, and even districts (via Moksha). He could easily compete for Scientific, Domination, probably even Cultural victory in this way.

Oh, and sorry for taking over the thread with these huge posts lol, but hopefully this is helpful.