About C02 Levels

[KansasJayhawk98]

Does anyone think that how climate is affected is a bit fast?

Like, as soon as I get Coal Power Plants and maybe 2 other Civs at best, only a couple turns later do we get to stage 3 or higher with Climate Change and tiles start getting affected.


Should the system be tweaked a bit? A slower reaction maybe?

[Aieonae]

Play marathron perhaps? My latest play took about 26~30 turns for the first, 2nd one came in at 12, 10, 5... was able to hit computers for flood barrier first.

[KansasJayhawk98]

Originally posted by Aieonae:

Play marathron perhaps? My latest play took about 26~30 turns for the first, 2nd one came in at 12, 10, 5... was able to hit computers for flood barrier first.

Ah, I play on Online speed. Lol

[N*rd]

still way to fast.

[Atrox314]

Been playing marathon, over 40 turns so far with coal plant and no change to climate

[Excrucian]

I haven't tried marathon yet, but I also believe that on normal speed it's ridiculously fast.

[PolecatEZ]

It all really depends, you can't judge from a single game. I've had epic size games where the CO2 didn't budge because everyone either skipped past coal and oil or didn't have any. The AI loves to spam solar panels and windmills everywhere. I've also had games where I was under water by 1890 or so.

Every game is completely different in regards to the climate change mechanic.

[Aieonae]

Mine is normal play. normally I ust beeline the computors nowadays. To get the flood barrier( with it using 3~4 turns to build.).

[Prometheus]

There are some pretty bad claims in this thread. Now I don't mind if people think that global warming is going on too fast or too slow, but if you want to discuss it, it should be on a factual basis, and not hyperbole and manufactured anecdote.

The formula, on standard map size and standard speed for global warming is like this.

Stage 1 global warming is 2000 units of global CO2. I have not been able to obtain clear data on how much is between stages, but it IS based on emissions, and the most likely number right now is 1000 between each stage.

Each coal has a weight of 3,3333 CO2. Each Oil has a weight of 1,6666 CO2. Uranium is unknown but significantly lower.

It does NOT MATTER what you are using Coal, Oil or Uranium on, it contributes the same flat rate. It does not matter HOW you contribute it (with a single small exception). The ONLY thing that counts is that you are burning strategics.

So what matters? Of course power production, where both Oil and Coal are 1 unit = 4 power. Units matter. A LOT. Each unit you produce needs 1 resource. But they have an upkeep of 1 resource per turn as well. A neat trick, combine into corps, armies, fleets and armadas, because they all have the same upkeep. Upgrading units also counts, and that is applied in the SAME turn, as opposed to all OTHER expendatures of CO2 strategics, that are on the turn-over.

And then we have laying down track, for a neat 1 Coal (+1iron) per tile.

These constitute your Civs emissions. Numbers in the menu are total to date. To get to Global emissions, you have to use global deforestation.

Deforestation is removal of forest, jungle and marsh. Each Civ as a score for the territory that have under their control. It's a chunk of the global amount of tiles. A Civ's deforestation does not come into play until the start industrializing. The score is given as a percentage, and acts as a multiplier. Thus 30% deforestation is emissions x1,3 for the global emission sum.

THUS we can calculate BACK to the claims made for instance by the OP.

What is our information?

A couple of civs hit industrialisation and began using strategics. Let's say 3. Then unless these civs have more than half the planet tiles and clean cut it all, deforestation was lower than 50%. Let's be generous and say 30%

So now we know that global emissions must have been 4000+ since it was stage 3 (2000+1000+1000). So let's say 4000 on the dot, keep benefit of the doubt to the storyteller.

So 4000/1,3 = 3077 units of CO2 have been produced. Since coal is the first available strategic, and no oil is mentioned, and it is early industrialisation no Oil is likely. Coal is also the worst CO2 polluter, so we will use it, for benefit of doubt.

This means we can calculate the amount of Coal used to make those emissions. 3077/3,3333 gives us 923.

923 Coal was spent for the result "only a couple turns later do we get to stage 3 or higher with Climate Change"

So let's say 20 turns. How much would it take? Well for one it would be 923 tiles of rail. If it was power that would be 46,15 coal each turn, which is 184,6 points of power. Or 92 factories running non stop each and every turn at full power! Or expressed in Ironclads and Battleships, which are the two units that use coal, 923/21 (for 20 turns + 1 resource for upgrade/production) 43,95 ships, divided through these civs would be 14+ each that they all had online and in use from the very first turn, be they base units, fleets or armadas.

From what can be seen above, coal plants are NOT the problem, it is massive fleets if it is anything. But I doubt the AI is fielding 14-15 of these naval units of two specific classes at the same time per civ, and the human player is probably not picking up the slack and running 20-30 of them either!

So these claims, in a couple of turns you just build a coal plant or two and BOOM stage 3 flooding.

I call ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥! This is using numbers that are deliberately generous towards the story and it still looks ridiculous!

You can argue it is too fast if you want. But drop the hyperbole. Drop the anecdotes. Use screenshots. Document you claims.

And btw, if you are playing marathon, you get a multiplier that lowers the effect of emissions. If you are playing larger maps, you get the same. Converse is true for speedy games on small maps.

[KansasJayhawk98]

I'd like to mention that I don't build railroads and units that also require strategic resources, I do, however have at least 5 or so cities each with a power plant.

The game encourages you to build power plants to power your city for better yields on districts, but geez after a few turns the Climate change affects are FAST.

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by KansasJayhawk98:

I'd like to mention that I don't build railroads and units that also require strategic resources, I do, however have at least 5 or so cities each with a power plant.

The game encourages you to build power plants to power your city for better yields on districts, but geez after a few turns the Climate change affects are FAST.

No numbers, no screenshots, no documentation, just re-iteration of the claim... which cannot be true. You are exaggerating or missing something important.

[KansasJayhawk98]

Originally posted by Prometheus:

Originally posted by KansasJayhawk98:

I'd like to mention that I don't build railroads and units that also require strategic resources, I do, however have at least 5 or so cities each with a power plant.

The game encourages you to build power plants to power your city for better yields on districts, but geez after a few turns the Climate change affects are FAST.

No numbers, no screenshots, no documentation, just re-iteration of the claim... which cannot be true. You are exaggerating or missing something important.

You claim I'm exaggerating because you're assuming that I'm also building units and making improvements on the roads that contribute to C02 increase.

I just told you that I don't do that, I've only built power plants.

I am telling you my experience with the game. Just because I'm not giving you screenshots, documentation, or numbers doesn't mean what I say isn't true. Because it's MY experience, not yours.

And the C02 effects and changes only get worse with more civilizations on the map.

[SkiRich]

@Prometheus, great post with the data. I dont have GS yet but am collecting info on gameplay for when it goes on sale.

One question on deforestation.
In the real world CO2 is the most plentiful gas and technically is a life giving gas.
CO2 = Plant Life = Food and O2
With the deforestation mechanic in game, I can see the negative effects.
But are there any positive effects of CO2 in game? Such as more plant production or spawning of trees or jungle? That would be cool and in line with real world.
Also, can you plant forests and do a sequestration of CO2?

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by KansasJayhawk98:

You claim I'm exaggerating because you're assuming that I'm also building units and making improvements on the roads that contribute to C02 increase.

I am not assuming anything like that. I took your story and analyzed it through the game mechanics. What you are saying cannot be true. That is just the way it is.

Originally posted by KansasJayhawk98:

I just told you that I don't do that, I've only built power plants.

It doesn't matter. You are not the only Civ on the planet creating emissions. You need to tally the entire score. Saying you are only building power plants means nothing at all. If they are not supplying power, then they are not emitting. If they are supplying power, it doesn't matter how many you have. What matters is the power that is created. That you do not understand this, is proof positive that you didn't even take the TIME to absorb what I wrote above.

Originally posted by KansasJayhawk98:

I am telling you my experience with the game. Just because I'm not giving you screenshots, documentation, or numbers doesn't mean what I say isn't true. Because it's MY experience, not yours.

And the C02 effects and changes only get worse with more civilizations on the map.

I don't care about your experience. I can't analyse it. I can't verify it. If you are not willing to supply proof, it is an interesting tale... that belongs among the tall ones.

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by SkiRich:

But are there any positive effects of CO2 in game?

Not in terms of plant growth. There are secondary effects of global warming, in that various disaster types are more common and things like floods, storms and volcanos and they DO make tiles more productive. So no, but roundabout yes.

Originally posted by SkiRich:

Such as more plant production or spawning of trees or jungle?

I have not seen any spontanous tile growth of trees or jungle. I doubt it is in the game, even though it was in 4 for instance.

Originally posted by SkiRich:

Also, can you plant forests and do a sequestration of CO2?

You can plant forest later, and I assume it helps lower deforestation. But that is a LOT of builder charges to make an impact. You can also run the "recapture emission project". At least one poster did it so well that he captured all his previous emissions, which exposed a design weakness, namely that you cannot recapture emissions for other Civs. In any case you can't roll back global warming, nor get tiles lost to the sea back either.

[Evilgenius]

Originally posted by KansasJayhawk98:

You claim I'm exaggerating because you're assuming that I'm also building units and making improvements on the roads that contribute to C02 increase.

I just told you that I don't do that, I've only built power plants.

I am telling you my experience with the game. Just because I'm not giving you screenshots, documentation, or numbers doesn't mean what I say isn't true. Because it's MY experience, not yours.

And the C02 effects and changes only get worse with more civilizations on the map.

Well you can claim your "Experiences" all you want, but just building a few powerplants wont give you those "experiences". Either you are severly lagging behind the AI and they are polluting like crazy or you are forgetting something.