International trade routes not worth it?

[Ghostlight]

So far I have found that internal trade routes are just stupid OP compared to trading with other civs and city states. I mean +4 food and +4 production versus a measly 10 to 15 gold and a tiny amount of science? That's no choice whatsoever.

Other than for envoys or perhaps religion spreading, why would I ever make an international trade route? What am I missing here? They aren't even remotely comparable.

[Exemplar]

Often in a game I have at least one economic ally during golden age bonus with international trade bonus and traders that can't be plundered. Similarly, plotting a relatively early dark age can net isolationism, and you're right in that case that domestic routes will net more. It's how you stack bonuses.

Production is a very important game aspect. I like to shore up 6-8k though to straight out buy a couple bombers when i finish advanced flight. (Which, strangely, can be researched before combustion or even replaceable parts.)

[sauluxville]

There are quite a few policy cards to boost international trade routes (Wisselbanken and others), and Golden Age Reform the Coinage dedication turns the international trade routes into rivers of liquid gold flowing into your treasury. In one game I had 10 international trade routes, bringing in 40 gold each - that's equivalent of 10 production if you want buy buildings and units.

It is probably true that first you may prefer internal routes to make your road network and have more food and production, but later it is definitely better to go international. The importance of food resource declines very quickly, and don't forget that 4 gold equals 1 production, but gold gives you more flexibility - it can be used for troop upgrades (saves you a ton of production), buying great people, buildings, tiles, etc.

Besides, international trade routes give positive diplo modifiers and helps with tourism, if you're aiming for a culture victory.

[Exemplar]

And spreads your religion and grants combat bonus and sight in those tiles.

Before someone asks: "If your intelligence apparatus is superior to your enemy's (that is, your level of Diplomatic visibility on him is greater than his on you), then you gain a +3 bonus, because you have advance warning on his armies' whereabouts and intentions. "
http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Combat_(Civ6)

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by Exemplar:

And spreads your religion and grants combat bonus and sight in those tiles.

Before someone asks: "If your intelligence apparatus is superior to your enemy's (that is, your level of Diplomatic visibility on him is greater than his on you), then you gain a +3 bonus, because you have advance warning on his armies' whereabouts and intentions. "
http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Combat_(Civ6)

But trade routes are canceled when you go to war, and with it goes the diplomatic visibility they provided. Only Mongolia gets any combat advantage from trade routes because they get visibility from the trading post the route creates (and they get a larger bonus from visibility, obviously)

[Maya-Neko]

Well, i always take +300 GPR over +60 GPR and some Food/Production. My cities are growing faster than i can handle the population in my cities anymore until the urbanization anyway and the Production of my main production cities are something like +50 at this point, so there's no need to waste money for such tiny amounts of production given the upgrade costs and prizes of units and buildings in the late game.

And it's also possible to use trade routes as preperation of offensive wars, as you sometimes might need the streets to cross a jungle or half a dozen hills between mountains. The loss in income is then compensated by the casualties you won't have when you can surround their cities twice as fast.

[Exemplar]

Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:

Originally posted by Exemplar:

And spreads your religion and grants combat bonus and sight in those tiles.

Before someone asks: "If your intelligence apparatus is superior to your enemy's (that is, your level of Diplomatic visibility on him is greater than his on you), then you gain a +3 bonus, because you have advance warning on his armies' whereabouts and intentions. "
http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Combat_(Civ6)

But trade routes are canceled when you go to war, and with it goes the diplomatic visibility they provided. Only Mongolia gets any combat advantage from trade routes because they get visibility from the trading post the route creates (and they get a larger bonus from visibility, obviously)

Hmm, I've never thought about this. I tested it today in a few saved games. I specifically dow'd ai opponents with whom i had 1 or more trade routes and secret or better visibility. In all cases it dropped 2 positions after the dow.

I previously held that the visibility waned over time, decreasing as one no longer took actions to improve it, but I see now it drops immediately. I think it "should" drop over time, but that doesn't make it so.

Good catch.

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by Exemplar:

Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:

But trade routes are canceled when you go to war, and with it goes the diplomatic visibility they provided. Only Mongolia gets any combat advantage from trade routes because they get visibility from the trading post the route creates (and they get a larger bonus from visibility, obviously)

Hmm, I've never thought about this. I tested it today in a few saved games. I specifically dow'd ai opponents with whom i had 1 or more trade routes and secret or better visibility. In all cases it dropped 2 positions after the dow.

I previously held that the visibility waned over time, decreasing as one no longer took actions to improve it, but I see now it drops immediately. I think it "should" drop over time, but that doesn't make it so.

Good catch.

It drops if the things that gave visibility no longer apply. When you go to war trade routes will end and delegation/embassy will be removed, so you don't have the visibility those give any more.

[Exemplar]

Yeh, well, I think diplomatic visibility should wane over time. It doesn't make sense for relative knowledge to drop precipitously in seconds after a dow. Maybe it should drop a level every 2 or 3 turns on quick speed.

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by Exemplar:

Yeh, well, I think diplomatic visibility should wane over time. It doesn't make sense for relative knowledge to drop precipitously in seconds after a dow. Maybe it should drop a level every 2 or 3 turns on quick speed.

It does make sense though. You don't get the visibility because your diplomats were expelled and trade ceased due to the war. The old information you got from those sources doesn't tell you what they're doing now because old news is no news.

[bri]

It depends on how you play the game. There are a lot of situations where the cha-ching from a good international route is worth a fair bit. Also, you can get more than with internal routes with certain civs, wonders, techs, policies, etc. In my most recent game as Cree my trade routes to large Mongol cities were all giving +6-8 food, 6-8 production, 20+gold, plus some culture and science. You can't get those sorts of numbers on internal routes.

[Ghostlight]

Thus far I have finished every game with 20k gold in the bank, without making more than one or two international routes (which I only did for envoys).

[sercera]

Regarding trade routes giving diplomatic visibility:
While there is a boost to any civ with active trade routes - there is also a boost if you have completed a trading post with another civilization. (Edit - I do not know if these separate boosts stack)
This is why the Mongol's ability that allows a trading post to be created in any city with a trade route (instead of when the trade route is completed) gives them extra visibility and therefore, extra combat strength against other civs

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by sercera:

Regarding trade routes giving diplomatic visibility:
While there is a boost to any civ with active trade routes - there is also a boost if you have completed a trading post with another civilization.

No there isn't. Getting visibility from trading posts is specifically Mongolia's ability.