A thing about navigating the ocean bugs me

[travisdead1]

At no point in history did some guy with a bow destroy a Galley. A guy with a bow can stop a canoe, NOT A SHIP.

Yeah, we can do it to. That doesn't make it right (for me anyway). I can't explore on the ocean without having a ship that can shoot back at all the damned Archers and Crossbowmen barbarians following every ship I have around on the coast.

[travisdead1]

Ships are moving. You can't hit a ship with a catapult...THE SHIP IS MOVING. Catapults were for walls THAT AREN'T MOVING.

[gimmethegepgun]

So you don't think that you can kill the crew necessary to keep the ship operational with a bow?

Why in the world wouldn't you be able to hit a ship with a catapult? The catapult has wheels. It can be turned.

[travisdead1]

Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:

So you don't think that you can kill the crew necessary to keep the ship operational with a bow?

Why in the world wouldn't you be able to hit a ship with a catapult? The catapult has wheels. It can be turned.

A catapult has wheel to take it to a wall, where it isn't turned, because walls can't move. A ship can see people on the shore with crossbows...AND TURN AROUND. That's why you can't kill a ship with crossbows. Ships are faster than people can run, and you sure as hell can't chase one with a catapult :)

in 2018...yes we are smart enough to devise some imaginary situation where you could kill the crew of a ship with bows. IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED. So why does it happen to every ship I send out to explore?

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by travisdead1:

Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:

So you don't think that you can kill the crew necessary to keep the ship operational with a bow?

Why in the world wouldn't you be able to hit a ship with a catapult? The catapult has wheels. It can be turned.

A catapult has wheel to take it to a wall, where it isn't turned, because walls can't move. A ship can see people on the shore with crossbows...AND TURN AROUND. That's why you can't kill a ship with crossbows. Ships are faster than people can run, and you sure as hell can't chase one with a catapult :)

in 2018...yes we are smart enough to devise some imaginary situation where you could kill the crew of a ship with bows. IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED. So why does it happen to every ship I send out to explore?

And you're not describing a ship being chased down by archers or catapults. You're describing a ship coming into range of them and getting shot at by them.

Which, by the way, from wikipedia: "The first recorded naval battle, the battle of the Delta between Egyptian forces under Ramesses III and the enigmatic alliance known as the Sea Peoples, occurred as early as 1175 BC. It is the first known engagement between organized armed forces, using sea vessels as weapons of war, though primarily as fighting platforms. It was distinguished by being fought against an anchored fleet close to shore with land-based archer support."
Land-based archers shoot at ships. Because those arrows can kill crewmen that are needed to operate the vessel. Or you can light them on fire, of course.

[Kyl]

Keep in mind, playing a turn based strategy like Civ VI requires some abandonment of realism when it comes to unit battles. It has to work with the core gameplay mechanics the developers have decided is best.

Your best option is a probably a mod.

[Exemplar]

There is an old Civ bit of humor about a spearman killing a tank. Of course it seems preposterous on the surface.

To me, "units" are their attack/defense values and capabilities, and whatever that nets in combat "is what it is". An archer unit, for example, isn't just one or five guys with bows, but a military company with the capacity to project damage without taking material damage to itself. Further, should that archer unit still exist in the modern era, it is a poorly equipped/outfitted/trained company of modern era people, with the stats and abilities applicable to an archer.

So you see, to me, there was never a "spearman killing a tank", but rather a particularly unskilled and under-equipped group in that tank's era getting particularly lucky against a tank regiment. While unlikely in open-plains combat, we see classic examples time and again in guerilla or urban warfare.

[travisdead1]

Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:

Originally posted by travisdead1:

A catapult has wheel to take it to a wall, where it isn't turned, because walls can't move. A ship can see people on the shore with crossbows...AND TURN AROUND. That's why you can't kill a ship with crossbows. Ships are faster than people can run, and you sure as hell can't chase one with a catapult :)

in 2018...yes we are smart enough to devise some imaginary situation where you could kill the crew of a ship with bows. IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED. So why does it happen to every ship I send out to explore?

And you're not describing a ship being chased down by archers or catapults. You're describing a ship coming into range of them and getting shot at by them.

Which, by the way, from wikipedia: "The first recorded naval battle, the battle of the Delta between Egyptian forces under Ramesses III and the enigmatic alliance known as the Sea Peoples, occurred as early as 1175 BC. It is the first known engagement between organized armed forces, using sea vessels as weapons of war, though primarily as fighting platforms. It was distinguished by being fought against an anchored fleet close to shore with land-based archer support."
Land-based archers shoot at ships. Because those arrows can kill crewmen that are needed to operate the vessel. Or you can light them on fire, of course.

Yeah I know the fight well actually :) The "sea people" that caused the end of the "Bronze Age" and the first "Dark Age". Egypt actually won that battle, at great expense...but a win is a win and Pharoes remained in charge until Alexander.

Those "ships", were small. They were essentially melee. You hooked on to one and pulled it over and then the "crews" (just men with knives, clubs whatever) would engage. On the shore, if nearby, some with crossbows might help out the (presumably) defending side.

That was in no way a caravel, a galley...hell they weren't even Viking Longships. Frigates were built of wood that survived even cannon fire. I'm assuming they had to be pretty small cannons, but I've seen them and I've read it. Had double hulls, so they kept floating. Boats of the medieval and later were too large and fast, they had been designed to be so they didn't have to worry about the shore boarding them.

You can't sink the ships of 1492 with people on the shore.

I've read many novels, and I can easily make up a realistic seeming story where it could be done. BUT THAT IS IMAGINATION. It never happened :) So why does it have to happen every single game. Over and over.

[travisdead1]

Originally posted by Exemplar:

There is an old Civ bit of humor about a spearman killing a tank. Of course it seems preposterous on the surface.

To me, "units" are their attack/defense values and capabilities, and whatever that nets in combat "is what it is". An archer unit, for example, isn't just one or five guys with bows, but a military company with the capacity to project damage without taking material damage to itself. Further, should that archer unit still exist in the modern era, it is a poorly equipped/outfitted/trained company of modern era people, with the stats and abilities applicable to an archer.

So you see, to me, there was never a "spearman killing a tank", but rather a particularly unskilled and under-equipped group in that tank's era getting particularly lucky against a tank regiment. While unlikely in open-plains combat, we see classic examples time and again in guerilla or urban warfare.

Oh yeah Exemplar, I get it. I did get years ago. It's just how the math worked in the program written. But this isn't a fantasy game. Or science fiction---well except the ending I guess. I want it to be somewhat closer to what really happend. SOMEWHAT.

It's just a game, and it's still fun. Just annoys me when a galley exploring the ocean is killed by an archer on a island.

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by travisdead1:

Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:

And you're not describing a ship being chased down by archers or catapults. You're describing a ship coming into range of them and getting shot at by them.

Which, by the way, from wikipedia: "The first recorded naval battle, the battle of the Delta between Egyptian forces under Ramesses III and the enigmatic alliance known as the Sea Peoples, occurred as early as 1175 BC. It is the first known engagement between organized armed forces, using sea vessels as weapons of war, though primarily as fighting platforms. It was distinguished by being fought against an anchored fleet close to shore with land-based archer support."
Land-based archers shoot at ships. Because those arrows can kill crewmen that are needed to operate the vessel. Or you can light them on fire, of course.

Yeah I know the fight well actually :) The "sea people" that caused the end of the "Bronze Age" and the first "Dark Age". Egypt actually won that battle, at great expense...but a win is a win and Pharoes remained in charge until Alexander.

Those "ships", were small. They were essentially melee. You hooked on to one and pulled it over and then the "crews" (just men with knives, clubs whatever) would engage. On the shore, if nearby, some with crossbows might help out the (presumably) defending side.

That was in no way a caravel, a galley...hell they weren't even Viking Longships. Frigates were built of wood that survived even cannon fire. I'm assuming they had to be pretty small cannons, but I've seen them and I've read it. Had double hulls, so they kept floating. Boats of the medieval and later were too large and fast, they had been designed to be so they didn't have to worry about the shore boarding them.

You can't sink the ships of 1492 with people on the shore.

I've read many novels, and I can easily make up a realistic seeming story where it could be done. BUT THAT IS IMAGINATION. It never happened :) So why does it have to happen every single game. Over and over.

So when confronted with the fact that literally the first ever recorded naval battle involved land archers fighting naval forces, you double down and say that it never happened. Gotcha.

Arrows are ranged attacks that kill people. Ships need people to operate. Thus, arrows can be used to make a ship non-operational. Especially a ship where the necessary personnel aren't even below deck.
Furthermore, arrows can be lit on fire. Ships are made of wood. Wood burns.

[cerberusiv]

Look up the Battle of Sluys. Prior to heavy cannon being carried on ships (from the early 1500's) naval battles started with archery duels to kill as many men on the opposing ships as possible before boarding. Archery was effective at killing crews.

Kill steersmen = disabled ship which may well drift ashore.

Alternative scenario. Galley crews usually camped onshore overnight - so they could potentially be attacked by land forces and captured/killed. That level of tactical detail can't be reflected in the game animations but there are plenty of possible ways a ship could be captured or destroyed by land forces.

[Twelvefield]

Originally posted by Exemplar:

There is an old Civ bit of humor about a spearman killing a tank. Of course it seems preposterous on the surface.

To me, "units" are their attack/defense values and capabilities, and whatever that nets in combat "is what it is". An archer unit, for example, isn't just one or five guys with bows, but a military company with the capacity to project damage without taking material damage to itself. Further, should that archer unit still exist in the modern era, it is a poorly equipped/outfitted/trained company of modern era people, with the stats and abilities applicable to an archer.

So you see, to me, there was never a "spearman killing a tank", but rather a particularly unskilled and under-equipped group in that tank's era getting particularly lucky against a tank regiment. While unlikely in open-plains combat, we see classic examples time and again in guerilla or urban warfare.

There's also a large and detailed reddit thread about how a spearman could destroy a battleship. As I recall, the spearman lit the tip of his weapon on fire and heaved it down an unguarded exhaust port the size of a womp rat, which led down to the ship's magazine and a chain reaction obliterated the enemy. If a farmboy can destroy a planet with one shot, why not have a spearman take out the Bismarck?

[Exemplar]

Originally posted by Catbert45:

Civilization 6 is weird, new citizens are born in cities with only one person in them. How is that second citizen created?

I like this old Civ 5 thread, although there were similar population scales in opinion articles back to Civ 2.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/actual-population-of-cities-in-civ5-i-grew-a-city-from-size-1-to-40-to-test-this.416892/

[Exemplar]

Originally posted by Catbert45:

Originally posted by Exemplar:

I like this old Civ 5 thread, although there were similar population scales in opinion articles back to Civ 2.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/actual-population-of-cities-in-civ5-i-grew-a-city-from-size-1-to-40-to-test-this.416892/

That's cool, so there's not really only one person in the city. I thought that was a bit odd.

So how many people are there in one unit?

People have discussed this, too. General consensus is that ships like aircraft carriers, battleships, destoyers, subs are single units (or rationally promotions or fleet/armada upgrades imply more than one), planes are roughly a squadron, give or take, then it varies.

I see ships as naval-capable units with x stats and capabilities. The value is relative to what they face. A caravel swimming up to atomic age trade routes and destroyers would be as a handful of modern pirates or similarly military-acting flotilla of gunboats from a pricey captured yacht base.

[Exemplar]

I guess another question to consider is the amount of years in a turn. Not many early units spent 5+ years away from land. As in, actually. I imagine there are peripheral islands, too small to render as actual terrain, on the map that sustain naval units. If they're close enough to a hostile coast, though, the hostiles can adversely affect them in that period.

Rather than start another post about it, another consideration is that military units aren't simply the fighting regiments themselves, but a veritable travelling town with capabilities to feed, water, (roughly) shelter x hundreds or thousands of people away from "home". This "occupation" moves with the unit.

[travisdead1]

Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:

Originally posted by travisdead1:

Yeah I know the fight well actually :) The "sea people" that caused the end of the "Bronze Age" and the first "Dark Age". Egypt actually won that battle, at great expense...but a win is a win and Pharoes remained in charge until Alexander.

Those "ships", were small. They were essentially melee. You hooked on to one and pulled it over and then the "crews" (just men with knives, clubs whatever) would engage. On the shore, if nearby, some with crossbows might help out the (presumably) defending side.

That was in no way a caravel, a galley...hell they weren't even Viking Longships. Frigates were built of wood that survived even cannon fire. I'm assuming they had to be pretty small cannons, but I've seen them and I've read it. Had double hulls, so they kept floating. Boats of the medieval and later were too large and fast, they had been designed to be so they didn't have to worry about the shore boarding them.

You can't sink the ships of 1492 with people on the shore.

I've read many novels, and I can easily make up a realistic seeming story where it could be done. BUT THAT IS IMAGINATION. It never happened :) So why does it have to happen every single game. Over and over.

So when confronted with the fact that literally the first ever recorded naval battle involved land archers fighting naval forces, you double down and say that it never happened. Gotcha.

Arrows are ranged attacks that kill people. Ships need people to operate. Thus, arrows can be used to make a ship non-operational. Especially a ship where the necessary personnel aren't even below deck.
Furthermore, arrows can be lit on fire. Ships are made of wood. Wood burns.

Yes i doubld down on. Because they WEREN'T ships. They were small boats and it was a definate location that could be prepared for a fight. THEY KNEW THE BOATS WOULD BE THERE. AND THE BOATS DIDN'T RUN. A ship just sailing around the ocean can't be killed by Archers.

LOL That I even have to say that...A ship sailing, doesn't even come into archer range. I know that right?