I am not a fan of the mechanics of Dark Ages and Golden Eras.

[garravesh]

The mechanics are not well thought out or are implemented poorly.

Early in the game you get a golden age by doing absolutely nothing that would make your society have a Golden Age in the real world.

See some sights....find some villages.......later on it becomes all those and kill a barbarian camp near your base......build a sphinx or equivalent.


Dark Ages means you do not do enough of these to get to the baseline.

Dark Ages are stereotypically caused by disease, invasion of the Huns or Mogols, or the fall of Rome.

Golden Eras are most typically cause by leaps in science, tolerance of religion, lots of peace. I mean Pharoah Snefru had a golden age which allowed him, in the 4th dynasty, to invest in Mastaba and create the Pyramids we all know and are in awe of.


To get a golden era all you need to do is to destroy barbarian camp.....over and over., A few other things contribute but it is mostly mundane boring things.


It would be much more valuable if only 1 civ could get the golden age and only 1 get the dark age.

This golden age or dark age would be based on things like your Scores in Sciecne and Culture, and Music etc.

The Dark Age could be a time where you fall behind in 1 or more facets of the game like science or have death from plagues the lessen your population.....or draw more resources from your economy to combat inflation or money leaving the nation, as a whole, in a tight situation.




I would have loved to see it based off your scores and output of science culture, etc etc.....


Military Golden Ages and dark ages
Cultural Golden Ages and Dark Ages
Scientific Golden ages and Dark Ages
Religion
Enginerring
Financial

Dark and Golden Ages for these aspects of the game.


Thats too bad they did it they way they did....a generic ho hum, IMO, way to do it.

[SamBC]

The things you describe as causes of dark ages are arguably consequences of them, not causes. Rome overextended and became decadent, too dependent on the foederati - so Rome fell.

You get to choose between a range of options what sort of golden age you get.

[Awen]

Dark ages historically were more about stagnation really.

[garravesh]

What rot. It is cause and effect. Rome fell. This caused a dark age. Almost all learning centers were destroyed. Islam was the bastion of light for a few hundred years to follow.

So you are saying, and let me get this verbatim.

My comments: Dark Ages are stereotypically caused by disease, invasion of the Huns or Mogols, or the fall of Rome.

Your counter is :The things you describe as causes of dark ages are arguably consequences of them, not causes

The consequences of the Dark age was that Rome fell? The Consequence of the Huns or Mongols invading was that Rome fell? The Black Death was 1347 to 1351 ish killed upwareds to 200 million people this ushered in a dark age because everyone was dead.....it is a cause not a side effect thereof.

I love a good debate but damn man get the facts...with all due respect.

[SamBC]

Originally posted by Caribou:

Dark ages historically were more about stagnation really.

Yup - and the stuff that gets you era score represent having a dynamic, active civ. So if you're not dynamic and active enough, you're stagnant, and get a dark age.

[Bouncer]

So you say it's not realistic for a civ to fall in a dark age when they let their science, discovery and architecture remain stagnant and let barbarians run rampant? I'm pretty sure the time period between the medieval ages and rome's fall was a dark age exactly because the people didn't write, learn or build much.

Civ doesn't have a disease or fallen empire mechanic either, so those can't be used (yet)

[bigcat]

Being a history buff and having watched tons of college courses on history and being glad there are no tests, I've decided one thing about Civ. it is a game. It is not a history sim.
If the world were a reflection of the Civ games, the UN would denounce and sanction Greece and Rome every 20 years for conquests in the BC years. The US would be invaded and destroyed by a vast army of artic archers who would destroy all the tanks. A third of all world leaders through history would have been women. Art and classical music would be shown in stadiums and be shown on TV and pro football would be played in front of hundreds with no TV. The world would be filled with visable hex lines.
It is a game created by people who have a passing knowledge of history largely gained by watching Disney movies and listening to celebs complain about DC. Created to be different enough and dumbed down enough from the previous version to sell better.
So no the new Ages and Eras aren't anything like history. They are just mini-goals to keep you interested in a flawed game that will be fondly remembered when Civ 7 is even worse.
Have a nice day. I'm off to kill a barb camp to spawn my scientific revolution!

[BucketHat]

Originally posted by garravesh:

The mechanics are not well thought out or are implemented poorly.

Early in the game you get a golden age by doing absolutely nothing that would make your society have a Golden Age in the real world.

You expect realism in a video game? In this case should have to spent 100 million years game time just developing fire as our first tech, then the wheel.

FWIW my first game as Korea had a strong start. I found two wonders via aggressive exploring, defeated two barb camps va aggressve military (+3 for one right next to my city), for building the first world sailing unit, for various relgious firsts and others. Golden Age? Yeah, I earned it!

[Viper]

Its a game. Not a World History Simulator. Its not even possible I don't think for a game to be so complex to mimic all the factors, diplomacy, and events of World History. Not even Paradox can do that.

[SirWinston]

I also dislike the new mechanics.

What makes me hate the dark age/golden age mechanic is that it forces me to play the game in a way I don't want to.
Most other gameplay elements can be ignored if you don't like them. You don't like to mess with relegions? No problem. You can go for every other victory type without founding a religion. You don't like spys? No problem. They are a nice feature but you don't need them for victory. You don't like tourism? No problem. Just don't go for culture victory and you will be fine.

But this dark age thing can't be ignored. It punishes you if you don't go for era score all the time. So you have to care. And you have to care all the time. This is by far the most importend gameplay element now. And it's not fun to search the civilepedia all the time for the next oportunity to grab some era points.

[SamBC]

You get era points for most constructive things you can do. Not the everyday things you do all the time, but loads of meaningful things lead to era score. You can even control, during a normal age, what will give you bonus era score.

[Skeev]

Originally posted by garravesh:

Dark Ages are stereotypically caused by disease, invasion of the Huns or Mogols, or the fall of Rome.

Fall of the Rome was not cause of a dark age, it was a effect of decaying socity and actully a symptom of a dark age itself.

[wizisi2k]

I have a problem with the setup. I play on pangea map settings and after my first golden age which I got lucky with as barbarians are disabled, I didn't have enough points going into the next age at standard. Points should be much lower for settler than they are now. The luck was getting 6 pts for founding a city near a natural wonder. I am being forced to try to get points quickly and my methods had me found a religion late. I await a mod that reduced points needed for golden/dark age

[Alien Behind The Door]

Originally posted by wizisi2k:

I have a problem with the setup. I play on pangea map settings and after my first golden age which I got lucky with as barbarians are disabled, I didn't have enough points going into the next age at standard. Points should be much lower for settler than they are now. The luck was getting 6 pts for founding a city near a natural wonder. I am being forced to try to get points quickly and my methods had me found a religion late. I await a mod that reduced points needed for golden/dark age

Playing on Settler with barbs off is not going to help much with regards to early era points...
Discover city states is something easy you can do, unless you have them turned off aswell.

[garravesh]

No, no, and NO. The Dark Ages were caused by the removal of Rome from the Stage.

Rome was, even though she was brutal, a bastion of science, technology and laws.

She maintained roads, aqueducts, and held large swaths of land.

Once she fell, I do not care if she fell to rabid pixies, or lead poisoning, or massive immigration, the fact that she fell ushered in the dark ages.

There were sevberal times in the last 300 years of Rome that there were emergencies. A string of bad emperors, lack of taxes and barbarian immigration. SHe, Rome, was able to overcome it by sheer will of these grand Imperators and continue one.

There is no reason to believe that if the various groups of Vandals and Goths, Ostrogoths had not brutalized Western Rome that it would not go on for many more years.

Whilst in a reduced state due to lesser taxes etc the flame that was Rome would have maintained roads aqueducts and civilization as a whole. As it had done for the last 300 years.


Refer to Petrarch.....who penned the term Dark Age.


It refers to a glorification of the classical era especially the Roman era and a darker age in which that author lived.

This nomeclature is accepted. It can be debated but the term Dark Ages was penned by a man who believed the Fall of the Roman empire ushered in a Dark Age. You can debate all you want about this and that but the truth REMAINS. The Dark Ages were started by the Fall of ROME....as penned by the author Petarch in the 1330's. A dark age because ROME did not exist anymore.


The Fall of ROME ushered in the dark ages because Petrarch, a man in the 1330's, penned the term DARK AGES.

[Harris]

Originally posted by SirWinston:

What makes me hate the dark age/golden age mechanic is that it forces me to play the game in a way I don't want to.

A fair point, in fact. And it's not the first case either. Since upon release the game forced you down certain paths via eureka/inspiration systems. The idea was great - you'd get boosts depending on what you do in the game. The results were.. not so great. You were essentially forced to repeat some actions over and over again every game, whether you liked it or not. Otherwise you lagged behind too much. It tends to feel like a repetetive chore.

Now, this system is Golden/Dark ages in the name only. What should be kept in mind is that Dark Ages is a name used by historians to denote the situation Europe found itself into after Classical era came to an end. For the long time Greece and Rome were the beacons of civilization in Europe, with strong military, trade, culture, you name it. So when we say Dark Ages we mean so in comparison. We imply, first and foremost, that all those achievements were lost or not used anymore. Even obviously good things like baths, sewers and maintained roads.

That said, the opinion exists that Medieval Age as a whole was a "Dark Age" - for it was dominated by poverty, misery, dominance of the church, praise of God as the only possible form of culture etc. It is what Renaiisance was all about later - to bring back the humanistic ideals of Classical era. Bottom line is term "Dark Age" indeed could be used quite loosely depending on the context.

That said, we're not talking Dark Age of Europe. We're talking single civilization. As in the game's notions. Because every post-Rome western country is known as "European civilization" or "western civilization". And here I think I agree with SamBC in that Golden/Dark Age is simply a measument of how a civ performed during the era in question.

Translated into reality of the game, it means something like that. Aztecs built many districts during the age. This lead to development in trade/production/culture/military/science etc. Arabia performed an islamic conquest and brought many cities to its faith. It also did well. And Korea built many libraries and universities and discovered cool stuff that would change the world. It qualifies as well. Now, China didn't do anything in particular but sitting in the corner of the map and chilling out. It didn't achieve anything so it's off to Dark Age for her.

So yes, this is merely a catchy name for the mechanics that evaluates your actions in the past era and rewards or punishes you. It encourages you to explore the map, to build districts, to fight barbarians, to.. well, excel in every way you possibly can.

I have to admit that this, like eurekas and inspirations, has obvious downsides to it. It is very dependant on the map and your surroundings. Noone tells you what influences Era Score gains (dedications aside) and you have to learn it by trial&error. And this sometimes leads to a frustrating experience.

Now, as it was mentioned before, it's entirely possible to ignore religion. Or spies. You could go fully trade civ. Or culture civ. Or military civ. There was always a way and you weren't punished for it. And with Ages system, it's exactly the opposite. You must engage in it and try to come on top unless you want your cities converting into enemy cities without a fight. It is overall a great mechanic for people who enjoy active game. But for ones who play casually at their own pace - not so much.