So we still don't have Hitler why?

[Lvl 1 Human]

I think the only good arguement against this would be that he would be absolutely dominite, like he should be.

[Bouncer]

Originally posted by lateralus_o_negative:

Obviously it's never going to happen but I don't really see why not other than the marketing issues. They've had Stalin in Civ games before and they have included plenty of other leaders who demonstrated 'questionable' judgement.

They did remove Stalin and Mao because of them being bad leaders. They won't be returning either.

Still, thing is with Hitler is that his movement and his victims are still very much alive. He is still too recent, so to say. He has still too much bad influence in the real world.

[Hetzrr]

You guys are focusing way too much on the emotional aspect of it. How about focusing on the historical aspect of it for once instead of letting your feelings get in the way? Hitler was a huge figure in history and theres no reason he should be excluded out of the game. Same goes with Stalin.

[MC858]

it would cause the red necks and the snowflakes to flood the board bashing each other all day. Thats why

besides the guy died like the piece of sh*t he was. Took his own life like a loser.

[ezwip]

Originally posted by ashbery76:

He invaded a few small counties,france and then got owned pretty easily..Not a great record and in time will be a irrelevant detail in history.

That said he is still more valid that a lot of these strange female leaders they have included.

Germany wasn't even formed until 1871. I'm not a pro Hitler type of person or anything but Genghis Kahn was far worse. You really can't find anyone worse than him.

[Bouncer]

Originally posted by Crusader11x:

You guys are focusing way too much on the emotional aspect of it. How about focusing on the historical aspect of it for once instead of letting your feelings get in the way? Hitler was a huge figure in history and theres no reason he should be excluded out of the game. Same goes with Stalin.

The historical aspect?

So....

He took Germany out of the slump, went on to attack all countries around him, failed to take over a good amount of them, backstabbed russia, gassed a few million innocents for no reason, starved his people, had every single country he conquered taken back from him including Germany itself, died like a cockroach and left Germany even worse than it started, to the point they didnt fully recover until the wall fell in 1992.

Even without the whole controversy surrounding him, I doubt you'd make anybody happy by having such an incompetent leader rule Germany when you got strong, solid picks like Frederich and Bismarc.

[Syn]

Originally posted by Bouncer:

Originally posted by lateralus_o_negative:

Obviously it's never going to happen but I don't really see why not other than the marketing issues. They've had Stalin in Civ games before and they have included plenty of other leaders who demonstrated 'questionable' judgement.

They did remove Stalin and Mao because of them being bad leaders. They won't be returning either.

Still, thing is with Hitler is that his movement and his victims are still very much alive. He is still too recent, so to say. He has still too much bad influence in the real world.

Thing is we can hardly forget the total hypocrisy civ engaged in for many years; Stalin and Mao were regular leaders up to Civ 4.

I recall that they were so afraid of Hitler that in Civ II's World War II scenario, every leader was there. Franco was leading Spain. Mussolini was leading Italy. Stalin was leading the USSR and leading Germany was..... Vice Chancellor von Papen. Yes, really. Even Hitler's NAME was taboo.

Granted that might have been due to silly German laws of the time, and it might have been different in the U.S. version but it goes to show how silly this refusal to acknowledge Hitler's existence compared to other equally if not more brutal and savage dictators.

I don't buy the "too soon" argument either. Many people who were victimised by Stalin and Mao lived long after their reigns of terror too.
The only real difference - and let's face it - is that Hitler lost and Stalin/Mao "won". As in, they weren't deposed. They got to die peacefully and only had their crimes gradually exposed slowly whereas Hitler fell and fell hard.

[CivNut123]

I think one thing that I would like to see is a religion that isn't a religion. Nihilism should be a valid religious choice, and should be able to be used to combat religion. This could be tied into a Hitler mod.

"I'm sorry, but your religion is nonsense. We have declared war on your people and their nonsense."

[CursedPanther]

Why do people always fall for the 'why no evil German fascist leader in the game' bait? No constructive debate nor conclusion ever comes outta it.

[Bouncer]

Originally posted by Syn:

Originally posted by Bouncer:

They did remove Stalin and Mao because of them being bad leaders. They won't be returning either.

Still, thing is with Hitler is that his movement and his victims are still very much alive. He is still too recent, so to say. He has still too much bad influence in the real world.

Thing is we can hardly forget the total hypocrisy civ engaged in for many years; Stalin and Mao were regular leaders up to Civ 4.

I recall that they were so afraid of Hitler that in Civ II's World War II scenario, every leader was there. Franco was leading Spain. Mussolini was leading Italy. Stalin was leading the USSR and leading Germany was..... Vice Chancellor von Papen. Yes, really. Even Hitler's NAME was taboo.

Granted that might have been due to silly German laws of the time, and it might have been different in the U.S. version but it goes to show how silly this refusal to acknowledge Hitler's existence compared to other equally if not more brutal and savage dictators.

I don't buy the "too soon" argument either. Many people who were victimised by Stalin and Mao lived long after their reigns of terror too.
The only real difference - and let's face it - is that Hitler lost and Stalin/Mao "won". As in, they weren't deposed. They got to die peacefully and only had their crimes gradually exposed slowly whereas Hitler fell and fell hard.

Winning is indeed a large part why Stalin and Mao got off decently when, really, they should be about as detestable as Hitler and never have been in a civ game.

But 2 other points is that Hitler shared his atrocities with the rest of Europe and failed, while Stalin 'only' killed their own people and 'succeeded'. Hitler's method led to a lot more living victims and a lot less bodies that tell no tales. Hence, a way, way worse reputation.

Point 2 is, Hitler has a habit of attracting ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, to the point even these type of discussions typically get locked eventually because nazis pop in and start going on 'hitler was awesome!' rants. Stalin and Mao don't have this problem.

Now this series has a stellar community and can safely be played by all ages, it is even educational to boot. Lets not do something that attracts nazis. That can only go wrong.

[rincewind]

Originally posted by CivNut123:

I think one thing that I would like to see is a religion that isn't a religion. Nihilism should be a valid religious choice, and should be able to be used to combat religion. This could be tied into a Hitler mod.

"I'm sorry, but your religion is nonsense. We have declared war on your people and their nonsense."

OH MY SCIENCE!!
Heh. Reminds me of certain South Park Episode!

[Martin]

Originally posted by Magnitogorsk:

Originally posted by Matimus:

Dominate? He got his butt handed to him. It ain't going to happen.

Only after he invaded Russia.

Don't remember the Russians being involved in North Africa.. And they only marched into the North of Berlin, the Americans marched into the South of it.

[Bouncer]

Originally posted by Martin:

Originally posted by Magnitogorsk:

Only after he invaded Russia.

Don't remember the Russians being involved in North Africa.. And they only marched into the North of Berlin, the Americans marched into the South of it.

No, Russia took all of Berlin. West Germany was the part taken by the Allies, East Berlin was the part taken by Russia. Berlin was split in half as part of an agreement, with west Berlin belonging to the Allies and east to Russia.

I played Call of Duty World at War so I know what I am talking about.

Seriously though, while my history is muddy I've never heard of the Allies being involved in Berlin during the war. Pretty sure that was all Russia.

[Narkulus]

Originally posted by Matimus:

Dominate? He got his butt handed to him. It ain't going to happen.

Axis deaths 6,582,000
Allied deaths 20,585,000

Death percentages
Axis civilian 4%
Axis military 13%
Allied civilian 58%
Allied military 25%

He was beaten, but it was not as easy as having his butt handed to him
The death toll for the Allied forces was tragic. And humanity still didn't learn much from it.

[Mr Eos]

Hitler = Voldemort.... pretty much.

The people think that acting like an ostrich is going to somehow make things better. But yet.... why does everyone still know about Hitler? IF you're barely even allowed to speak it's name. Why is he still known world wide for what he did? So whatever you are trying to do, it's not working.

And Besides, he was just a man. Would these same people who cry about Hitler being a leader in Civilization be opposed to the Devil himself being a character in a game? Surely Satan has more qualities to be fearful of than Hitler? And even then, like the Nazi's... who are just soldiers of Hitler. The Devil has soldiers too... called demons. How many games have you all played that have demons in them? But somehow a man is more vile?

It's reasons like this, is why the world will never move on to a better place. People holding on to stupid stuff like this, actually keeps the hate alive. You think that you are somehow learning from it, and better for it. But you're not, really.

In the words of Yoda.....

You know the quote. Something about Fear and hate.

And I'm not religious, I'm just pointing out how flip-floppy some people are about what is and is not ok to have in something like a video game.

It's kind of sad that the notion that you might attract a neo-nazi into the forum, has forced you to, in spirit, censor the game to try to protect yourself from it. And in the end, it means nothing and accomplished nothing other than to contribute to turning you all into snowflakes who need a safe space.

Do you consider the notion of having to deal with athiests and satan worshippers in the game forum of any game where you are fighting against demons? And even if you did, what do you do with them.... you troll and debate them like any other person on a forum. How is trading logic/insults/trolls with a neo-nazi any different?

[CivNut123]

Originally posted by Bouncer:

Originally posted by Martin:

I played Call of Duty World at War so I know what I am talking about.

The new generation. :)