Failed Wonder Compensation

[144]

In Civ 5, when an AI managed to complete a wonder I was attempting to build, it was infuriating - especially if it was a turn or two left to completion. However, the fact that there was monetary compensation for my time and effort spent made me continue playing the game, instead of doing what I do now.
Now, in Civ 6, what I do (as a casual person) is restart the whole game. I hate this. It feels like a piece of my life has been lost. And as game developers, this is a failure of design.
You may think that it's more realistic to have failed wonders behave as they do, but I find that in doing so they sacrafice a fun player experience, and trying to justify something that makes the player experience worse is conceited, indifferent, and indicative of poor game design intentions.

[144]

TLDR: I should get money or something whenever the AI finishes a wonder I was working on.

[hobbes94]

Usually if i get beaten by 1 or 2 turns i reload a save game and build something else..haha.

[D3bs]

I don't mind the fact that you get nothing as it has made me think hard about what wonders to build. Whereas in Civ V there was always the attitude of 'if I don't build it first I get cash'; so there was less to think about or less of a decision to make.

I guess it's just the other side to the coin, like the saying goes 'you can't please all of the people all of the time. Having said that I fully appreciate how frustrating it is as I've been a victim of this myself.

[White Shadow]

I think the world wonder system in general is too weak in Civ VI. I understand wanting to move wonders onto tiles for thematic reasons (plus, it does look pretty cool to see them more or less to scale on the map), but many of the Wonder bonuses are just far too weak to justify building them.

Plus, they require often times very specific and hard-to-find tiles just to build. And then you add the zero gold if an AI beats you in a wonder race, and you quickly realize, they're not worth building at all.

The wonders, in their current system of a per-tile basis, need a DRAMATIC buff to their effects. We can't wonder hoard anymore, so if we're only building a few wonders per game, those wonders need to offer SUBSTANTIAL boosts to be worth it. They're more or less on-par with a tile improvement a builder can build in one turn, when they need to be at the very least, as useful or even more useful than a district.

And sure, the game "forces me to decide," alright. It "forces me to decide" to never build them...

[OZFugazi]

hi..

i don't mind the new system. sure it would be nice to get a little something for the time spent, but then i usually build a city around the wonder to begin with, if i feel it that important to have, and focus my tech path as well. policy wonders (those that add policy slots), i find are the most value per time spent. alhambra, forbidden city, potala palace big ben.. or even wonders that benifit through the whole game, like pyramids or hanging gardens.. can also be quite usefull.. but there are some wonders that simply are not worth the effort, or time.. even more so time lost by losing it to another civ.

over time, you will get a sense as to certain civs focusing certain wonders, and if it's a wonder you want and know you will need to compete with.. war them, or pay someone else to war them.. and slow them down.

all the best.

[Paulytnz]

There may not be compensation but there is something else which I think is better. Well from memory anyway, a long time back I have experienced this.

Basically what happens is this. The other civ beats you to the wonder and you think you lose all those resources into the wonder but you don't, not really. You see the game saves your progress towards that wonder.

How does this help me you may ask? Well, if you then go ahead and conquer the city that built that wonder and then raize the city magic happens. You can restart building the wonder (since it does not exist in the world anymore) and as I said earlier, your progress is saved and you start over from where you left off when the civ beat you.

Now I ask you which would you prefer?

1 - A cash/production injection when you fail at bulding it or

2 - The chance to build it again later where you left off?

Now you may think "cash & production" would be nice as I get it at that moment of failure and it's another way I can progress forward if I fail.

In my mind this promotes a failsafe that should not be in the game. It can even be abused in a way just to get cash/production injections. It also offers no punishment for failing to beat others to build it.

Example you may have nothing left to build as you may have all the troops you want/buildings etc for the time being. So you think to yourself. Oh well I will start building a wonder, the other civs will beat me to it anyway and I will just get some cash/production out of it - win win.

In my opinion we should be building the wonders in the first place because we want said wonder and it will offer something cool for us. Having that in mind, if you go back to my question I should think most people would choose option 2? Or is that just some strange "me" thing lol?

[pitonsnaboca]

@ Paulytzn
In previous Civs I never went for wonder expecting a refund. And I seriously doubt that many people thought about it that way. I don't see it as a win-win situation, more like a minor blow from the fact that you lost the wonder bonus.

But, aside that small detail, I like your arguments and I had no idea whatsoever that wonders could be rebuilt after being razed along with it's city. Nice to know. :)

[Paulytnz]

Originally posted by pitonsnaboca:

In previous Civs I never went for wonder expecting a refund. And I seriously doubt that many people thought about it that way. I don't see it as a win-win situation, more like a minor blow from the fact that you lost the wonder bonus.

But, aside that small detail, I like your arguments and I had no idea whatsoever that wonders could be rebuilt after being razed along with it's city. Nice to know. :)

Yeah they can be. I make sure to put them all where they rightfully belong - in my empire in perfect spots lol! Just waiting for the mod that lets us raze capitols to be created then it can be a perfect system lol. :D

[White Shadow]

Originally posted by Paulytnz:

There may not be compensation but there is something else which I think is better. Well from memory anyway, a long time back I have experienced this.

Basically what happens is this. The other civ beats you to the wonder and you think you lose all those resources into the wonder but you don't, not really. You see the game saves your progress towards that wonder.

How does this help me you may ask? Well, if you then go ahead and conquer the city that built that wonder and then raize the city magic happens. You can restart building the wonder (since it does not exist in the world anymore) and as I said earlier, your progress is saved and you start over from where you left off when the civ beat you.

Now I ask you which would you prefer?

1 - A cash/production injection when you fail at bulding it or

2 - The chance to build it again later where you left off?

Now you may think "cash & production" would be nice as I get it at that moment of failure and it's another way I can progress forward if I fail.

In my mind this promotes a failsafe that should not be in the game. It can even be abused in a way just to get cash/production injections. It also offers no punishment for failing to beat others to build it.

Example you may have nothing left to build as you may have all the troops you want/buildings etc for the time being. So you think to yourself. Oh well I will start building a wonder, the other civs will beat me to it anyway and I will just get some cash/production out of it - win win.

In my opinion we should be building the wonders in the first place because we want said wonder and it will offer something cool for us. Having that in mind, if you go back to my question I should think most people would choose option 2? Or is that just some strange "me" thing lol?

A few problems with this scenario.

Firstly, this is impossible if the foreign civilization builds the wonder in question in their capital, as capitals can not be razed.

Secondly, I would argue that the time, resources, and production needed to field an army in said war would be equal to or greater than the production cost of said wonder, thus not making this any form of "compensation" at all.

Thirdly, it breaks immersion. Name me one time throughout human history, where a nation declared war on another nation, for the sole purpose of burning the city to the ground, in order to build an exact copy of a building/wonder already built there back in their homeland.

"Aww, man. I wanted to build the Pyramids here in Paris. Oh, I know! Let's invade Egypt, burn their civilization to the ground, destroy their pyramids, and finish building them here."

[Azunai]

Originally posted by pitonsnaboca:

@ Paulytzn
In previous Civs I never went for wonder expecting a refund. And I seriously doubt that many people thought about it that way. I don't see it as a win-win situation, more like a minor blow from the fact that you lost the wonder bonus.

But, aside that small detail, I like your arguments and I had no idea whatsoever that wonders could be rebuilt after being razed along with it's city. Nice to know. :)

actually, building wonders for the "failgold" was a fairly common trick in civ 4.

[Gustav_der_III]

Originally posted by Wilhelm Steinitz:

I think the world wonder system in general is too weak in Civ VI. I understand wanting to move wonders onto tiles for thematic reasons (plus, it does look pretty cool to see them more or less to scale on the map), but many of the Wonder bonuses are just far too weak to justify building them.

Plus, they require often times very specific and hard-to-find tiles just to build. And then you add the zero gold if an AI beats you in a wonder race, and you quickly realize, they're not worth building at all.

The wonders, in their current system of a per-tile basis, need a DRAMATIC buff to their effects. We can't wonder hoard anymore, so if we're only building a few wonders per game, those wonders need to offer SUBSTANTIAL boosts to be worth it. They're more or less on-par with a tile improvement a builder can build in one turn, when they need to be at the very least, as useful or even more useful than a district.

And sure, the game "forces me to decide," alright. It "forces me to decide" to never build them...

the wonders with hard-to-find tiles never get build by AI. Ai is to stupid :)

[DryRot]

I just don't build them anymore. They're a failed implementation of a mechanic that Civilization has always enjoyed: one of many, many failures in Civ 6.

[hopsblues]

How about using a builder to harvest the materials used in the failed attempt. Provides production/food for the city. Just like woods or stone.

[pitonsnaboca]

Originally posted by Azunai:

actually, building wonders for the "failgold" was a fairly common trick in civ 4.

I never did it or knew of anyone doing it. But if you say so, who am I to disprove. :)

But that would be even more exploitable, here, cause here you stop production of something and it keeps it "stored", if you change to something else in the middle.
So, all you had to do was start building any wonder, stop right before completion and wait for someone to finish it, in order to get the "refund". And you could even have a row of unfinished wonders waiting for refunds.
Now I even agree more with the fact that they took it away from Civ6. :)

[Paulytnz]

Originally posted by Wilhelm Steinitz:

Originally posted by Paulytnz:

There may not be compensation but there is something else which I think is better. Well from memory anyway, a long time back I have experienced this.

Basically what happens is this. The other civ beats you to the wonder and you think you lose all those resources into the wonder but you don't, not really. You see the game saves your progress towards that wonder.

How does this help me you may ask? Well, if you then go ahead and conquer the city that built that wonder and then raize the city magic happens. You can restart building the wonder (since it does not exist in the world anymore) and as I said earlier, your progress is saved and you start over from where you left off when the civ beat you.

Now I ask you which would you prefer?

1 - A cash/production injection when you fail at bulding it or

2 - The chance to build it again later where you left off?

Now you may think "cash & production" would be nice as I get it at that moment of failure and it's another way I can progress forward if I fail.

In my mind this promotes a failsafe that should not be in the game. It can even be abused in a way just to get cash/production injections. It also offers no punishment for failing to beat others to build it.

Example you may have nothing left to build as you may have all the troops you want/buildings etc for the time being. So you think to yourself. Oh well I will start building a wonder, the other civs will beat me to it anyway and I will just get some cash/production out of it - win win.

In my opinion we should be building the wonders in the first place because we want said wonder and it will offer something cool for us. Having that in mind, if you go back to my question I should think most people would choose option 2? Or is that just some strange "me" thing lol?

A few problems with this scenario.

Firstly, this is impossible if the foreign civilization builds the wonder in question in their capital, as capitals can not be razed.

Secondly, I would argue that the time, resources, and production needed to field an army in said war would be equal to or greater than the production cost of said wonder, thus not making this any form of "compensation" at all.

Thirdly, it breaks immersion. Name me one time throughout human history, where a nation declared war on another nation, for the sole purpose of burning the city to the ground, in order to build an exact copy of a building/wonder already built there back in their homeland.

"Aww, man. I wanted to build the Pyramids here in Paris. Oh, I know! Let's invade Egypt, burn their civilization to the ground, destroy their pyramids, and finish building them here."

There are a few things here you are over looking.

1 - You don't have to be the civ to conquer the city and raize it. Anyone doing so will give you back the chance to rebuild the wonder.

2 - If it's in their capitol, it is true you can't raize it and rebuild it. But the logic there is, you have the wonder anyway since you own the city. Sure you lose out what you paid for it in the first place. But look at that as an oversight from Firaxis, it wouldn't be the first *cough* "where's standby? Why oh why no standby with game release!" *cough*.

3 - I did mention in another post that this would be corrected as soon as we get the chance to raize capitols by a mod if/when created.

4 - Immersion, do you mean reality? We are talking about a game here, not real life. Many things we do here in this game we or no one could or did do through out history. Yes it does seem odd that we can take over a city, burn it down to the ground and then magically be able to rebuild everything that was in that city. Strange that feature is here in the game, yet it is there, the devs added it for some reason. Just like the odd rule "only one of this wonder can be built at any one time". I wonder what rule in the real world is in existance that they had to copy it into this game. Oh wait there is none, its merely there for game balance or what not.

5 - And last of all, if we did go with number 1 - that is get compensation in some form would that make sense? Why can't we continue to keep on building the thing? Like I said above, what is this magic rule that actually stops us from building the thing? Where would these resources come from? Thin air? How would that be for reality/immersion or what did or didn't happen in history.

You can argue all these points with the devs. They made the game the way they did, not I lol. They are their flaws. I am merely pointing out what is there instead of what used to be or what we may want.

Oh one last thing I should have said in my first post. The system that they have in place whereby if the city does get raized and we can continue on to rebuild the item. Is as usual a hidden system where they even keep the info away from us. Surprise, surprise lack of info/basic rules/mechanics from these guys. It's all trial and error here....

No rhyme or reason - it just is.