I'm still confused by Ocelot Scheme in MGS 4 (and MGS 2)

[Tequila Sunset]

Ok, so I get it that he hypnotized himself into believing he was Liquid Snake, and apparently it was in order to fool the patriots A.I. ... But, Ocelot IS working for the patriots, and Liquid was not working for them, so how is making the A.I. think he is Liquid a good plan ?

In MGS1 he uses Liquid to recover Rex's test data (the data of the battle between Snake and Rex) in order to give it to Solidus. He does this to give Solidus an opportunity to steal Arsenal Gear 4 years later (because he wants to create his own Outer Heaven with it, to free himself and his soldiers from the patriots control), the goal is actually for the patriots to recreate the shadow moses incident in order to train someone else (Raiden) and turn him into another Solid Snake.

In MGS2, if what Ocelot wants is, in the end, to destroy the patriots, why doesn't he simply explains everything to Emma and ask her to create the virus that Raiden and Snake use later ?
We sometimes see Liquid taking over Ocelot personality, but it's never necessary. Everything he does is something good for the patriots, exept when he crashes Arsenal Gear into Manhattan and escapes, stealing a metal gear ray on his way.
But befor that, the patriots think Ocelot is working for them, so he is not a threat to them, so why should he need to make them think he is possessed by Liquid, hence becoming a threat to them, just like Solidus and Big Boss were ?
Yes,he wants the patriots to react by sending their best agents (Solid Snake and the Rat Patrol, everyone of them not even knowing they're working for the patriots) to kill him. The goal being actually to use them to destroy the patriots, but he could have done this without faking the personality disorder, just saying "Meeah ! Imma Ocelot and Imma going to fulfill Big Boss dreams, because I deeply love him ! Hail Big Boss ! Hurray to Outer Heaven's resurection !"

In MGS4, he even manage to steal an arsenal gear to the patriots, the one with G.W. A.I., so why doesn't he simply destroy it himself ? Why does he need Solid Snake to do it ? And why the frak does he need to make everyone think he is Liquid ?

In the end, yes, all of this does make a great story, and that's why I'm such a huge fan of every Metal Gear game, but I have to admit that the story is way more complicated than it could be.

[ags317]

A Rival Living a Lie

[Danny Dataly]

Ocelot fooled the system into thinking he was liquid so that the patriots, a machine, would just repeat the shadow moses scenario and send solid snake after him. Then he infiltrated Naomi into Snake's HQ in order to give him the virus and then let him infiltrate GW so that the virus could spread. His plan involved the patriots AI being completely wiped out in order to send the whole world into chaos and revive the dream of outer heaven, but sunny outsmarted everyone and modified the virus so that the patriots would cease to exist but the structure of society would be kept intact, thus preventing chaos.

[hellscream]

Originally posted by Venom:

Ok, so I get it that he hypnotized himself into believing he was Liquid Snake, and apparently it was in order to fool the patriots A.I. ... But, Ocelot IS working for the patriots, and Liquid was not working for them, so how is making the A.I. think he is Liquid a good plan ?

In MGS1 he uses Liquid to recover Rex's test data (the data of the battle between Snake and Rex) in order to give it to Solidus. He does this to give Solidus an opportunity to steal Arsenal Gear 4 years later (because he wants to create his own Outer Heaven with it, to free himself and his soldiers from the patriots control), the goal is actually for the patriots to recreate the shadow moses incident in order to train someone else (Raiden) and turn him into another Solid Snake.

In MGS2, if what Ocelot wants is, in the end, to destroy the patriots, why doesn't he simply explains everything to Emma and ask her to create the virus that Raiden and Snake use later ?
We sometimes see Liquid taking over Ocelot personality, but it's never necessary. Everything he does is something good for the patriots, exept when he crashes Arsenal Gear into Manhattan and escapes, stealing a metal gear ray on his way.
But befor that, the patriots think Ocelot is working for them, so he is not a threat to them, so why should he need to make them think he is possessed by Liquid, hence becoming a threat to them, just like Solidus and Big Boss were ?
Yes,he wants the patriots to react by sending their best agents (Solid Snake and the Rat Patrol, everyone of them not even knowing they're working for the patriots) to kill him. The goal being actually to use them to destroy the patriots, but he could have done this without faking the personality disorder, just saying "Meeah ! Imma Ocelot and Imma going to fulfill Big Boss dreams, because I deeply love him ! Hail Big Boss ! Hurray to Outer Heaven's resurection !"

In MGS4, he even manage to steal an arsenal gear to the patriots, the one with G.W. A.I., so why doesn't he simply destroy it himself ? Why does he need Solid Snake to do it ? And why the frak does he need to make everyone think he is Liquid ?

In the end, yes, all of this does make a great story, and that's why I'm such a huge fan of every Metal Gear game, but I have to admit that the story is way more complicated than it could be.

cant explain MGS2 lol but in MGS4 his mind more or less snaps and only the Liquid persona exists. thinks thats it been along time since i played MGS4 :)

[Sekkuar666]

Nanodoublethink, son

[Tequila Sunset]

Originally posted by Sekkuar:

Nanodoublethink, son

Unnecessary nanodoublethink, though.

[Xarathox]

Originally posted by Xed51:

Ocelot fooled the system into thinking he was liquid so that the patriots, a machine, would just repeat the shadow moses scenario and send solid snake after him. Then he infiltrated Naomi into Snake's HQ in order to give him the virus and then let him infiltrate GW so that the virus could spread. His plan involved the patriots AI being completely wiped out in order to send the whole world into chaos and revive the dream of outer heaven, but sunny outsmarted everyone and modified the virus so that the patriots would cease to exist but the structure of society would be kept intact, thus preventing chaos.

This is about the best explination in as few words as possible you're gonna get, unless you just say because...Kojima.

[Sekkuar666]

Originally posted by Venom:

Unnecessary nanodoublethink, though.

dude, do you even nanodoublethink?
war is peace (peace day never came)
freedom is slavery (thanks for spanking me boss!)
unnecessary is necessity (ocelot being ocelot being liquid)

[Tequila Sunset]

Originally posted by Xarathox:

Originally posted by Xed51:

Ocelot fooled the system into thinking he was liquid so that the patriots, a machine, would just repeat the shadow moses scenario and send solid snake after him. Then he infiltrated Naomi into Snake's HQ in order to give him the virus and then let him infiltrate GW so that the virus could spread. His plan involved the patriots AI being completely wiped out in order to send the whole world into chaos and revive the dream of outer heaven, but sunny outsmarted everyone and modified the virus so that the patriots would cease to exist but the structure of society would be kept intact, thus preventing chaos.

This is about the best explination in as few words as possible you're gonna get, unless you just say because...Kojima.

But why doesn't he plug the virus into GW himself ? Why does he need Solid Snake ?

[Tequila Sunset]

Originally posted by Sekkuar:

Originally posted by Venom:

Unnecessary nanodoublethink, though.

dude, do you even nanodoublethink?
war is peace (peace day never came)
freedom is slavery (thanks for spanking me boss!)
unnecessary is necessity (ocelot being ocelot being liquid)

THAT is an explanation that actually satisfy me ^^
George Orwell ex machina. X)

[Sekkuar666]

Originally posted by Venom:

But why doesn't he plug the virus into GW himself ? Why does he need Solid Snake ?

Liquid Ocelot's ultimate plan was to destroy the patriots AI. He couldn't do that without making the AIs feel so threatened that they lowered their guards and gave Snake too much power, which would then backfire.

Besides, Liquid Ocelot didn't have the Foxalive virus, Naomi never managed to complete it. I'm guessing his expectation was that Otacon could help Naomi finish the virus, but as turned out, Sunny did

[Xarathox]

Originally posted by Venom:

Originally posted by Xarathox:

This is about the best explination in as few words as possible you're gonna get, unless you just say because...Kojima.

But why doesn't he plug the virus into GW himself ? Why does he need Solid Snake ?

To justify the existance of the protaganist?

Actually, I have a theory that Ocelot subconciously knew that Sunny was the real game changer and adjusted his totally convoluted plan accordingly. I don't think he needed Solid Snake, but he did need Sunny to work her wizardness into the virus to prevent total chaos.

Out of every character in the MGS series, Ocelot always knew way more than anyone else.

[Roxy]

You're missing a piece of the puzzle. He really WAS being posessed by Liquid during MGS2. He didn't hypnotize himself until the start of MGS4, after he cut off Liquid's arm and replaced it with a bionic arm instead.

[Sekkuar666]

Originally posted by Son "Shotgun" Ryo:

You're missing a piece of the puzzle. He really WAS being posessed by Liquid during MGS2. He didn't hypnotize himself until the start of MGS4, after he cut off Liquid's arm and replaced it with a bionic arm instead.

I don't think that's true

[Tequila Sunset]

Originally posted by Son "Shotgun" Ryo:

You're missing a piece of the puzzle. He really WAS being posessed by Liquid during MGS2. He didn't hypnotize himself until the start of MGS4, after he cut off Liquid's arm and replaced it with a bionic arm instead.

Are you absolutly sure about that ? ...
I don't think so...

[Roxy]

Originally posted by Venom:

Originally posted by Son "Shotgun" Ryo:

You're missing a piece of the puzzle. He really WAS being posessed by Liquid during MGS2. He didn't hypnotize himself until the start of MGS4, after he cut off Liquid's arm and replaced it with a bionic arm instead.

Are you absolutly sure about that ? ...

Yes, absolutely. They went over it in that MGS timeline thing that was released on the PSN after MGS4 came out. It's because he's the son of the Boss (the Joy) and the Sorrow, so he inherited some of the Sorrow's ability to contact the dead, that's why Liquid's spirit was able to possess him.