Why would Snake allow torture? [probably spoilers in discussion]

[Valdyr]

He has the memories of what it was like to be tortured by Volgin, and as an elite soldier he's well-educated enough on military intelligence to know that information gained from torture is unreliable. The person will either hold out until they die, or just say whatever BS they think you want to hear to make the pain stop, whether or not they even know anything. I can maybe understand being rough with Huey if he blames him for what happened to Mother Base 9 years ago, but why would he let anyone else be tortured? Especially Quiet, who he's formed a bond with, and has consistently been the only one besides Ocelot to defend her. But he's right there letting Ocelot torture her. What the hell, Snake.

[Spider]

Cause Miller is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and Snake knows that Quiet can handle it and Snake even steps in and stops it. Ocelot just loves it, its a sport for him.

[Shalashaska]

Originally posted by DsR Spider:

Cause Miller is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and Snake knows that Quiet can handle it and Snake even steps in and stops it. Ocelot just loves it, its a sport for him.

I'ts not a sport! It's the ultimate form of expression.

[Spider]

Originally posted by Shalashaska:

Originally posted by DsR Spider:

Cause Miller is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and Snake knows that Quiet can handle it and Snake even steps in and stops it. Ocelot just loves it, its a sport for him.

I'ts not a sport! It's the ultimate form of expression.

Ultimate form of expression or not my thumb is still sore from MGS1.

[a basic bitch]

It is the year 2015 and real countries and people still believe torture is effective despite research proving otherwise.

Now let's go back to 1984, before those studies were done.


Are you seriously asking why people in the past didn't have access to information only recently compiled, studied, and disseminated?


Secondly, you're also ignoring the obvious fact that torture got the protagonists exactly what they wanted, every single time in the narrative. So, why wouldn't he use torture?



You wrote a whole paragraph but never stopped to think once. Amazing.

[Archammer555]

It kind of feeds into the main problem with "The Boss" in this game, he comes off as very, very indecisive having to defer or accept the choices and decisions being made by the people around him rather than stepping up to the plate and making his own choices. They do try and explain this in the twist but it makes even less sense then. With Huey I can see why, he's waxing wrath at him and looking forward to getting his explanation as to why the original MB was destroyed. Where it falls apart is Quiet, the Boss has shown that he does care about her in previous cutscenes and the amount of chances she has had to bump him off are beyond numerous and if the bond level is too be taken as a plot point as well then they are quiet firmly comrades at this point. Yet he just stands there as the poor girl is being electrocuted and then salt water which as they said gives the sensation of burning her alive. In fact it’s Code Talker who has to tell them that they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ idiots and they could kill her, they either can't see it or big boss is just too dumb or cowed to act. That is pretty much the moment in the plot I stopped caring, as Megatron said its bad comedy at this point, Big Boss despite all we later learn about him has been on the receiving end of torture too often to allow it to happen to a friend, MGS3 Eva anybody?

[Valdyr]

Originally posted by a basic ♥♥♥♥♥:

It is the year 2015 and real countries and people still believe torture is effective despite research proving otherwise.

Now let's go back to 1984, before those studies were done.


Are you seriously asking why people in the past didn't have access to information only recently compiled, studied, and disseminated?


Secondly, you're also ignoring the obvious fact that torture got the protagonists exactly what they wanted, every single time in the narrative. So, why wouldn't he use torture?



You wrote a whole paragraph but never stopped to think once. Amazing.

This isn't "new" information at all. The US Army Field Manual on Interrogation has stated that torture is unreliable since at LEAST 1987. That was just the oldest version I could find, after spending 5 seconds in Google, and makes no reference to any groundbreaking new studies. Anyone practicing torture since antiquity could put two and two together and realize someone will say whatever they think will make the torture stop, whether it's accurate or not. But don't let me stop you making a fool of yourself coming in with pointless hostility on a subject you're not even correct on.

[Shalashaska]

Originally posted by Valdyr:

The US Army Field Manual on Interrogation has stated that torture is unreliable since at LEAST 1987.

And the game happened in 1984 in an alternative reality.

[Valdyr]

Originally posted by Shalashaska:

Originally posted by Valdyr:

The US Army Field Manual on Interrogation has stated that torture is unreliable since at LEAST 1987.

And the game happened in 1984 in an alternative reality.

My point is that if this wasn't considered groundbreaking new information in 1987, it's probably something that had been known for at least a few years in the US intelligence and military communities.

[Valdyr]

Originally posted by Archammer555:

It kind of feeds into the main problem with "The Boss" in this game, he comes off as very, very indecisive having to defer or accept the choices and decisions being made by the people around him rather than stepping up to the plate and making his own choices. They do try and explain this in the twist but it makes even less sense then. With Huey I can see why, he's waxing wrath at him and looking forward to getting his explanation as to why the original MB was destroyed. Where it falls apart is Quiet, the Boss has shown that he does care about her in previous cutscenes and the amount of chances she has had to bump him off are beyond numerous and if the bond level is too be taken as a plot point as well then they are quiet firmly comrades at this point. Yet he just stands there as the poor girl is being electrocuted and then salt water which as they said gives the sensation of burning her alive. In fact it’s Code Talker who has to tell them that they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ idiots and they could kill her, they either can't see it or big boss is just too dumb or cowed to act. That is pretty much the moment in the plot I stopped caring, as Megatron said its bad comedy at this point, Big Boss despite all we later learn about him has been on the receiving end of torture too often to allow it to happen to a friend, MGS3 Eva anybody?

I can understand there are narrative benefits to a silent/mostly silent protagonist, but I agree that Big Boss seems really hands-off and not much like a decisive leader a lot of the time. The whole game, I was expecting him to give Miller a verbal smackdown and go on a rant about how his own revenge isn't the only thing in the world that matters, but he lets him get away with so much disrespect and borderline insubordination.

[Shalashaska]

Well maybe, yes.

That didn't prevent the us government to torture prisoners at guantanamo in recent years. It might be unreliable but still gets the job done.

[OhGod!YetAnotherGuyWithALongName]

Well; you forgot an aspect of Ocelot's method, it's rare that it gets physical and even more so that it gets lenghty, he even says so in a tape.

I don't remember if it's by Ocelot's order that Quiet gets electric shocks but I remember cleary Huey's scenes where Ocelot threatens to pour acid on his mechanical legs and he understands the acid would reach the bones eventually, he then talks.. etc.

But yeah, you'll say just about anything to make it stop, I wish Kojima would have slipped a reference to Reservoir Dogs in there but heh.. Can't have everything :P

[Valdyr]

Originally posted by Shalashaska:

Well maybe, yes.

That didn't prevent the us government to torture prisoners at guantanamo in recent years. It might be unreliable but still gets the job done.

The US government has mostly been going backwards in the 21st century. If they actually based their policies on what scientific research indicates is the most effective, rather than what someone has convinced other people is politically expedient, things would be a lot different across the board.

[Valdyr]

Originally posted by OhGod!YetAnotherGuyWithALongName:

Well; you forgot an aspect of Ocelot's method, it's rare that it gets physical and even more so that it gets lenghty, he even says so in a tape.

I don't remember if it's by Ocelot's order that Quiet gets electric shocks but I remember cleary Huey's scenes where Ocelot threatens to pour acid on his mechanical legs and he understands the acid would reach the bones eventually, he then talks.. etc.

But yeah, you'll say just about anything to make it stop, I wish Kojima would have slipped a reference to Reservoir Dogs in there but heh.. Can't have everything :P

Ocelot at least allows it without saying anything despite being the interrogation expert. In general, they treat Quiet like ♥♥♥♥ even after she proves herself over and over again, just to satisfy Miller's paranoia. The men all revere Big Boss, if he explained to them that Quiet was a valuable ally and that it didn't matter what they thought of her personally, they'd fall in line.

[['w']]

Originally posted by Shalashaska:

Originally posted by DsR Spider:

Cause Miller is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and Snake knows that Quiet can handle it and Snake even steps in and stops it. Ocelot just loves it, its a sport for him.

I'ts not a sport! It's the ultimate form of expression.

well even though it might me a little bit over your heads or too much for "some of" you guys. but torture is a form of killing your own weakness, observed in another person, through torturing him. read arno gruen

https://mechanome.wordpress.com/2014/04/23/arno-gruen-they-inflict-violence-on-a-world-that-does-not-correspond-to-their-dissociated-state/

[['w']]

Originally posted by Archammer555:

It kind of feeds into the main problem with "The Boss" in this game, he comes off as very, very indecisive having to defer or accept the choices and decisions being made by the people around him rather than stepping up to the plate and making his own choices. They do try and explain this in the twist but it makes even less sense then. With Huey I can see why, he's waxing wrath at him and looking forward to getting his explanation as to why the original MB was destroyed. Where it falls apart is Quiet, the Boss has shown that he does care about her in previous cutscenes and the amount of chances she has had to bump him off are beyond numerous and if the bond level is too be taken as a plot point as well then they are quiet firmly comrades at this point. Yet he just stands there as the poor girl is being electrocuted and then salt water which as they said gives the sensation of burning her alive. In fact it’s Code Talker who has to tell them that they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ idiots and they could kill her, they either can't see it or big boss is just too dumb or cowed to act. That is pretty much the moment in the plot I stopped caring, as Megatron said its bad comedy at this point, Big Boss despite all we later learn about him has been on the receiving end of torture too often to allow it to happen to a friend, MGS3 Eva anybody?

+1