I still don't get the beginning of the game and other things [Major Spoilers]

[ctrap33]

Everything said after this is a spoiler:



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So, I understand that Venom Snake, AKA Ahab, (the playable character) isn't the real Big Boss. But there are some questions I have that don't make sense (at least to me). I have just about completed all missions, btw.

1. How does Ahab have similar combat skills as Big Boss? I mean, we don't really know much about him. I would assume that if he was a medic before the coma, he really didn't have elite combat skills. Is this explained in any way?

2. Was the real Big Boss in a coma for 9 years? It would be a pretty big coincidence if both Ahab and Big Boss were out of commission for the exact amount of time. However, in mission 46, we see Miller and Big Boss on the emergency room table shortly after the "Paz" bomb goes off. From the perspective of Ahab, we see Big Boss get hit with a defibrillator while a doctor explains that he is stable, but in a coma. Then we hear Miller ask about Ahab (the player character). If all of this happened from the perspective of Ahab, then that means Ahab was not in a coma. So what's the deal, was Ahab actually in a coma for 9 years? Was he fooled into believing this? Was his memory wiped? Were both Big Boss and Ahab in a coma? Depending on these answers, there are many other questions that arise.

3. If Ahab was in a coma for 9 years, what the hell was Big Boss doing during that time? Was Big Boss in a coma for 9 years also? Did he just stay in the hospital for 9 years in the bed next to Ahab? Hell, what was everyone (Miller and Ocelot included) doing? During the Phantom Pain, you rebuild Motherbase in what is less than a year (correct me if I'm wrong). So, it seems there is just a big blank space of nothing happening in the 9 years of coma. Big Boss, Miller, and Ocelot could have rebuilt Motherbase without Ahab, why did they wait 9 years?

4. If Ahab wasn't in a coma for 9 years, how was he led to believe that he was? How was he tricked into being Big Boss?

5. Why was Ahab tricked into being Big Boss? I understand that Big Boss was a target after the Paz explosion. But it doesn't make sense to alter Ahab's face to look like Big Boss. Why wouldn't the real Big Boss alter his face to look like someone else? It appears to me that Ahab was changed to look like Big Boss to protect the real Big Boss. But then why would the real Big Boss stay in the hospital the whole time if he knew he was in danger? Or was he somewhere else for 9 years and only returned once Ahab woke up from his coma?

6. Where is Big Boss during the events of Phantom Pain and what is he doing? I vaguely remember in one other game (I think it was Guns of the Patriots) that someone (Ocelot?) mentions how fast Big Boss's fame grew during the 80s. It was as if he was suggesting that he was in two places at once. This makes more sense now playing Phantom Pain knowing that there sort of were two Big Boss's. Still, did I miss something with the actions of Big Boss? He disappears after helping Ahab out of the hospital. So where does he go?

7. Does only Ahab see himself as Big Boss? In other words, did he actually get plastic surgery to look like Big Boss, or does he just see himself this way? The game confused me at the beginning when it had you alter your appearance. Then, the doctor showed you yourself in a mirror, and you saw your avatar, then you saw what appeared to be Big Boss. So, I am confused as to how other players in the game see Ahab. Also, when you look at your reflection in the window of the ACC, you see your avatar which makes me even more confused.


Sorry for the giant wall of questions, but does any of this make sense? I bet I a missing a lot, but that's what happens with such a complicated story where everything you see happen actually happens differently.

Thanks in advance.

[supertrooper225]

Ahab was implanted with the Boss' memories and experiences, he has none left of his previous life. So, in effect, he IS Big Boss....he has led his life, his training and has gone through his troubles. But he is just a different person who got blew up. Yes, Ahab sees himself as Big Boss until Big Boss tells him the truth in a tape. He seems to go along with Big Boss' plans after finding out. Big Boss was off getting started on Zanzibar I am guessing.

Before becoming V Ahab threw himself in front of Big Boss, shileding him from the blast. Big boss also mentions that he was their best man in the former outfit and he obviously trusts him after damn near sacrificing himself for the Boss.

I am not sure if Big Boss was also in a coma for nine years or if he was just waiting for Ahab to wake up for a really....really long time. Or if they came up with the body double plan later on and decided to use Ahab once he woke up.

[TommyEV]

1. Explained in a tape: he was actually the best soldier at mother base aside forn Snake hmself.
2. BB did wake up long before Venom, we don't really know how long
3. he stays there to recover, and specially protect you (both in general and when the day comes to get you out of there)
4. He was ina coma and they used hipnosis, and porbably ♥♥♥♥ like making him listen to thousand of tapes and so on. This kind of things. (it is fiction after all, but I get your confusion since he was in a coma and not awake).
5. BB is an icon and it is important that there is still a BB. Also unless the bad guys found his body, they would still be looking for him, but if it turns out there is another bB, the real one is free to do whatever he wants.
6. he starts building his new Outer Heaven, Zanzibarland (MG2), also goes back to the spotlight and becomes the boss of the new unit FoxHound. Both leading FH (the goiod guys, supposedly) and the bad guys (Zanzibarland)
7. He does get the surgery. The reflections in the mirrors and such are poetic, to make you/him see how he really is. In a similar way you can sometimes see, figuratively, how his horn grows after mission 43 or in some reflections in which he is seen as evil.

I hope it all makes more sense to you now. Feel free to ask anything else!

[Pitiful Child Man]

IMO the less you think about this games story the better.

[The Tear Collector]

Originally posted by istealthelite:

IMO the less you think about this games story the better. :VSnake:

I think it's the opposite

[Valdyr]

1. Ahab was a combat medic and one of the best soldiers in MSF, I think he was one of the first soldiers Big Boss recruited and personally trained in CQC. You can find some of the other "OG" Big Boss recruits in the Wandering Mother Base Soldier side missions, they have single names like Jackal and Parrot.

2. As I understand it, both Ahab and Jack were in a coma. I don't know when exactly Jack woke up, but it was at least a few weeks before Ahab for him to have time to be able to recover his physical abilities and work out the plan with Ocelot. I don't think that cutscene was from Ahab's perspective, there are some cutscenes from a "god's eye view" perspective that the player character couldn't possibly be present to witness, like Eli getting the vial from the Third Child on Mother Base.

3. When Miller recovered, he scraped together a small mercenary group doing small-time jobs for anyone who would pay. I don't know what Ocelot was doing, or how long Jack was in his coma. I assume Miller didn't think he had what it takes to be the kind of leader Big Boss was, so he kept a small force rather than establishing a base and trying to build up a staff of hundreds.

4. As far as I know, he really was in the coma for 9 years. One of the "Truth" tapes has Ocelot say that he used Ahab's altered state of consciousness in the coma to brainwash/hypnotize him into believing he's Jack, including false memories of all Jack's missions and experiences. Pretty absurd, but that's Metal Gear Solid for you.

5. I don't know, honestly. This is what points to Jack being in a coma for almost as long as Ahab was. I agree that it's suspiciously convenient if Jack woke up just before Ahab did, but that would hardly be one of the silliest things in the series. I don't really understand how Zero/Ocelot's plan was a good one. The inconsistencies make some people theorize that the "Truth" is a lie, and Ahab really IS Jack, and Ishmael was a hallucination, and everything can be explained by Jack being brain-damaged and mentally unstable. The twist being fake makes even less sense to me than it being real, but who knows?

6. Dunno. But he looks the same as he always did, which kind of makes the whole decoy plan a bit silly. I mean, he's a pretty distinctive-looking guy. But whatever.

7. There are inconsistencies, but yes, Ahab looks like Jack, just with a lot of facial scars Jack doesn't have, the forehead shrapnel, and different damage to his bad eye.

To your overall question, "Does any of this make sense", I'll say...sort of? There are definite clues throughout the game that Ahab isn't Jack, but there are also enough inconsistencies that could be argued to show Ishmael was a hallucination and Ahab and Jack were always the same person.

[Radovan]

For all we know BB was in coma for at least 2 years, following what Zero said in one of his tapes.

[Pitiful Child Man]

Originally posted by Alchemist:

Originally posted by istealthelite:

IMO the less you think about this games story the better.

I think it's the opposite

I like most of it its just the ending im not fond of.

[Sophie]

About the coma time - if I understood the tapes correctly, Big Boss woke up roughly nine years after his coma. But Ahab? We can't know for sure. What we do know is that he was in a form of induced coma, after all he was being "turned into Big Boss".

We know from the tapes that Zero had this started before Big Boss woke up. And Big Boss himself asks about his "neighbour" after waking up, and Ocelot answers something along the lines of "he isn't really awake, he's undergoing hipnosis".


The way I see it, Ahab was woken up from this state around the time they were ready to move Big Boss out of the hospital. So for you, Ahab, you've just woken up after nine years. Remember, you weren't fully conscious as they messed around with your mind - who knoes how long you've been trully awake.

[Misa]

Originally posted by Valdyr:

1. Ahab was a combat medic and one of the best soldiers in MSF, I think he was one of the first soldiers Big Boss recruited and personally trained in CQC. You can find some of the other "OG" Big Boss recruits in the Wandering Mother Base Soldier side missions, they have single names like Jackal and Parrot.

2. As I understand it, both Ahab and Jack were in a coma. I don't know when exactly Jack woke up, but it was at least a few weeks before Ahab for him to have time to be able to recover his physical abilities and work out the plan with Ocelot. I don't think that cutscene was from Ahab's perspective, there are some cutscenes from a "god's eye view" perspective that the player character couldn't possibly be present to witness, like Eli getting the vial from the Third Child on Mother Base.

3. When Miller recovered, he scraped together a small mercenary group doing small-time jobs for anyone who would pay. I don't know what Ocelot was doing, or how long Jack was in his coma. I assume Miller didn't think he had what it takes to be the kind of leader Big Boss was, so he kept a small force rather than establishing a base and trying to build up a staff of hundreds.

4. As far as I know, he really was in the coma for 9 years. One of the "Truth" tapes has Ocelot say that he used Ahab's altered state of consciousness in the coma to brainwash/hypnotize him into believing he's Jack, including false memories of all Jack's missions and experiences. Pretty absurd, but that's Metal Gear Solid for you.

5. I don't know, honestly. This is what points to Jack being in a coma for almost as long as Ahab was. I agree that it's suspiciously convenient if Jack woke up just before Ahab did, but that would hardly be one of the silliest things in the series. I don't really understand how Zero/Ocelot's plan was a good one. The inconsistencies make some people theorize that the "Truth" is a lie, and Ahab really IS Jack, and Ishmael was a hallucination, and everything can be explained by Jack being brain-damaged and mentally unstable. The twist being fake makes even less sense to me than it being real, but who knows?

6. Dunno. But he looks the same as he always did, which kind of makes the whole decoy plan a bit silly. I mean, he's a pretty distinctive-looking guy. But whatever.

7. There are inconsistencies, but yes, Ahab looks like Jack, just with a lot of facial scars Jack doesn't have, the forehead shrapnel, and different damage to his bad eye.

To your overall question, "Does any of this make sense", I'll say...sort of? There are definite clues throughout the game that Ahab isn't Jack, but there are also enough inconsistencies that could be argued to show Ishmael was a hallucination and Ahab and Jack were always the same person.

Bravo

[sameoldstranger]

well from what was said about brainwashing,
is that it is based on trauma.
the subject is psychologicaly and physically abused,
to the point where they create an alter persona to escape their agony.
they externalise the alter so it can be forgotten and replaced.
in my opinion,
the medic wouldnt have eased into big boss,
and might have lapsed into his old memories if there was no attack.
so zero intentionally gave xof big bosses location,
to reinforce the programming.
after all it is he who controls information,
how would big boss location get out if it werent intentional?

[TommyEV]

OK, I don't really remember about this but I think XOF discovering about his location has to do with the Child. Zero is more or less BB's friend, after all

I hope this post isn't ignored like my first one :'(

[ctrap33]

Originally posted by Valdyr:

2. As I understand it, both Ahab and Jack were in a coma. I don't know when exactly Jack woke up, but it was at least a few weeks before Ahab for him to have time to be able to recover his physical abilities and work out the plan with Ocelot. I don't think that cutscene was from Ahab's perspective, there are some cutscenes from a "god's eye view" perspective that the player character couldn't possibly be present to witness, like Eli getting the vial from the Third Child on Mother Base.

This is the part that makes the least sense and that I disagree with you on. Just the way the cutscene takes place from the perspective of Ahab. They could have shown all three men (Miller, Big Boss, and Ahab) lying in the operating room, but they showed it from the position of Ahab. This leads me to believe that Ahab was never actually in a coma because of his injuries. If this is the case, it would make very little sense to employ the whole hypnosis scheme in the same hospital. I mean, with how nuts the whole indoctrination plan is, you would think that Ocelot and his resources would have had the means to get Big Boss and Ahab out of the hospital and some place more secure.

[sameoldstranger]

Originally posted by TommyEV:

OK, I don't really remember about this but I think XOF discovering about his location has to do with the Child. Zero is more or less BB's friend, after all

I hope this post isn't ignored like my first one :'(

so a psychic and a fire ball roam around the worlds hospitals to find snake?
zero knew that big boss and venom, even almost invalid,
were more than up to it, they survived a helicopter crash,
what is a walking wick and a kid in gas mask to them?
i think it was the only way venom would adhere to his programming,
zero even says it himself the only ones who knows where boss was himself and ocelot.
maybe ocelot leaked big bosses location knowing the real big boss could be rescued.
ocelot is well versed in brainwashing,
like teaching someone how to ride a bike,
by pushing them down the hill.

[Outlaw1109]

BB was in a coma for 9 years.

They had to "wake" ahab up, which is why he's all messed up when things happen.

Also, to the guy asking questions above my post, the thing about Mantis is explained earlier in the game. His plane was "coincidentally" flying over the hospital when Ahab woke up and it was Ahab that awakened Mantis's powers, but then Mantis formed a connection (for some reason) with Vulgin's corpse.

Ala, they did not have to search for BB, they knew where he was (and I could be wrong on this last part) but they were also all in the same vicinity of each other.

It's called plot convenience.

[TommyEV]

In case you have forgotten or don't know XOF unit and Skullface act on their own, not under Ci`pher/Zero's orders. Sames goes for the GZ attack, all Skullface's