SPOILERS ALERT - Zero/Big Boss - Need explanation on the story

[felep2]

Hi guys!

I wanted to discuss a specific point of the story, if you have not completed episode 46 do not continue to read! Big SPOILERS coming from now on!




So we were all suprised with the (bad?) twist of the story with mission 46, the man who sold the world (big boss not being big boss but his medic instead, venom snake being the "big boss" killed in metal gear 1, the true big boss "killed" in metal gear 2).

But one question remains from my point of view: why Zero would help Big Boss after the destruction of MSF Base ? Why would he help him to hide in Chyprus Hospital? He even is the one who has the idea to use the medic as Venom Snake etc... Why would he help big boss like that?

I mean, Zero and Big Boss at that time (1975, destruction of MSF base) were already ennemies, and Big Boss being killed by Skullface would have been a more convenient situation for Zero than saving him, and hiding him in Chyprus.

Maybe I miss an element in the story, so please give me your points of view about that, because I can't find a solid explanation...(Zero knew that Big Boss would avenge him by killing skullface?)

Thanks!

[Antonio Neto Kosovo]

they are not enemies, they are friends with different opinions. big boss even joined patriots with zero, but split because of les enfant terribles.

skullface attacked big boss, not zero. skullface worked for zero, but went rogue and even attacked zero.

[Chunkarock]

Originally posted by Antonio Neto Kosovo:

they are not enemies, they are friends with different opinions. big boss even joined patriots with zero, but split because of les enfant terribles.

skullface attacked big boss, not zero. skullface worked for zero, but went rogue and even attacked zero.

This is right. Just to clarify a bit further, Cipher is a messed up organization without order and control. This allowed Skullface to attack the MSF base 9 years ago.

[Antonio Neto Kosovo]

Originally posted by Centurio:

Originally posted by Antonio Neto Kosovo:

they are not enemies, they are friends with different opinions. big boss even joined patriots with zero, but split because of les enfant terribles.

skullface attacked big boss, not zero. skullface worked for zero, but went rogue and even attacked zero.

This is right. Just to clarify a bit further, Cipher is a messed up organization without order and control. This allowed Skullface to attack the MSF base 9 years ago.

yes, cipher is huge, too big to be fully controlled.

[felep2]

Originally posted by Antonio Neto Kosovo:

Originally posted by Centurio:

This is right. Just to clarify a bit further, Cipher is a messed up organization without order and control. This allowed Skullface to attack the MSF base 9 years ago.

yes, cipher is huge, too big to be fully controlled.

Thanks!
So Zero helped to save Big Boss because he was felling guilty (and wanted revenge as well) of Skullface actions, who was still part of Cipher when he destroyed MSF base ?

[Chunkarock]

Originally posted by felep2:

Originally posted by Antonio Neto Kosovo:

yes, cipher is huge, too big to be fully controlled.

Thanks!
So Zero helped to save Big Boss because he was felling guilty (and wanted revenge as well) of Skullface actions, who was still part of Cipher when he destroyed MSF base ?

Right. Zero was a true friend even though they had conflicting ideals.

[Hazy_Maze_Cave]

Originally posted by felep2:

Originally posted by Antonio Neto Kosovo:

yes, cipher is huge, too big to be fully controlled.

Thanks!
So Zero helped to save Big Boss because he was felling guilty (and wanted revenge as well) of Skullface actions, who was still part of Cipher when he destroyed MSF base ?

it seems to be an enemy-of-the-enemy-is-my-friend a little bit here. Skull Face attacking MSF was to draw out Zero so that he could be poisoned. XOF was part of Cipher but went rogue after MGS3.

[Hazy_Maze_Cave]

The story twist is not bad or I don't understand why people think so. The twist was the best way to turn Big Boss into the ultimate villain. I have yet to hear anyone suggest a better way than personally screwing over the player.

Big Boss finally sells out his all-consuming Boss-centric ideology, becoming the very thing he hates, someone who uses soldiers w no regard for their person. This is why he smashes the mirror. He passes on the title of Big Boss as the govt once passed on the title to a man named Jack.

He is using Venom the way the govt used him. At this point he is without moral foundation and working entirely in his own self interest. In other words, has turned evil. Are people missing this? Why do they not like it?

Saying that it was obvious or had already been done is a mute point. Kojima does not need to be a slave to the past. Every game that he makes, fans ask why it isn't like their favorite, like MGS. An artist must feel free to experiment, free to fail. Truly great art plays with that failure. They wanted him to take out the Paz stuff but he wanted body horror to be a big theme in the game. This is Kojima's series, no denying it, and with him gone it will lose that sense of experimentation.

The Twist has been in every Metal Gear since the 8-bit ones. Open World has as well. These are Kojima's themes for the series. TPP is the culmination of the entire series.

[Hazy_Maze_Cave]

It's really crazy when you think about it I guess Big Boss was working for Zero once again! He betrayed his mentor in MGS3 when he was working for Zero and now he's betraying his soldiers, again, with Cipher pulling the strings.

Is Cipher the Boss's phantom?

[Chunkarock]

Originally posted by Adam_Vania:

The story twist is not bad or I don't understand why people think so. The twist was the best way to turn Big Boss into the ultimate villain. I have yet to hear anyone suggest a better way than personally screwing over the player.

Big Boss finally sells out his all-consuming Boss-centric ideology, becoming the very thing he hates, someone who uses soldiers w no regard for their person. This is why he smashes the mirror. He passes on the title of Big Boss as the govt once passed on the title to a man named Jack.

He is using Venom the way the govt used him. At this point he is without moral foundation and working entirely in his own self interest. In other words, has turned evil. Are people missing this? Why do they not like it?

Saying that it was obvious or had already been done is a mute point. Kojima does not need to be a slave to the past. Every game that he makes, fans ask why it isn't like their favorite, like MGS. An artist must feel free to experiment, free to fail. Truly great art plays with that failure. They wanted him to take out the Paz stuff but he wanted body horror to be a big theme in the game. This is Kojima's series, no denying it, and with him gone it will lose that sense of experimentation.

The Twist has been in every Metal Gear since the 8-bit ones. Open World has as well. These are Kojima's themes for the series. TPP is the culmination of the entire series.

I feel that it was partly Kojima's fault for advertising the game as Big Boss' downfall to evil. I guess that it's a translation thing because what he's trying to express is perfectly understandable in his home country but put it in the western world and all you'll get is a mistranslated meaning and expression.

If players have been paying attention to Peacewalker's ending and the Nuclear trailer, they'll know by now that Big Boss is now on his way to being bad - hence the "Kaz, I'm already a demon" line in which he knows that what he's doing is totally way out of line and will probably get a lot of flack if he continues down this road - and that line isn't even spoken by the real Big Boss. Venom doesn't even own the memories and thoughts of Big Boss yet he knows that he's already evil.

The Phantom Pain's ending, just like what you said, is just an expansion and reassurance of the actual Big Boss' descent into evil. And I too don't get why many players didn't like the twist.

[Hazy_Maze_Cave]

I don't know about the advertising. Overhyped maybe, but I am confused about what people expected. Did they forget he made MGS2 and famously didn't how who you would be playing as for 80% of the game?

This twist has him working with past villains. Decent into evil.
This twist has him totally reject the Boss's sacrifice. Decent into evil.

[supertrooper225]

The game does chart big boss' descent. Gamers are just so damn dense that they don't get that private militarization, war profiteering, kidnapping and stockpiling nukes are all really ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ bad things to do.

Not trying to be rude. I just don't see what is so hard to understand.

[Hazy_Maze_Cave]

By the end of TPP Big Boss is so evil that he's turning other people evil.

[foofighter_ii]

Zero needed Big Boss to continue the project (creating militias all over the world), so in the end, Zero could control them. Big Boss was necessary to create a legend for soldiers and private armys. So, If you follow the time line, Cypher (the program) finally took over control of the power militia (Metal Gear Solid IV) and finally where destroyed by Sunny. Cypher was in fact the invention from Zero.

[GrayHound]

Originally posted by supertrooper225:

The game does chart big boss' descent. Gamers are just so damn dense that they don't get that private militarization, war profiteering, kidnapping and stockpiling nukes are all really ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ bad things to do.

Not trying to be rude. I just don't see what is so hard to understand.

Private militarization is evil?
War profiteering aka being a mercenary is evil?
Admiting ruthless soldiers into your family and keeping them on a leash is evil?
I'm not stockpiling nukes.

[supertrooper225]

Originally posted by GrayHound:

Originally posted by supertrooper225:

The game does chart big boss' descent. Gamers are just so damn dense that they don't get that private militarization, war profiteering, kidnapping and stockpiling nukes are all really ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ bad things to do.

Not trying to be rude. I just don't see what is so hard to understand.

Private militarization is evil?
War profiteering aka being a mercenary is evil?
Admiting ruthless soldiers into your family and keeping them on a leash is evil?
I'm not stockpiling nukes.

Big boss isn't a bwahahahahaha villain. He is a good dude who lost his faith in governments and went down a slippery slope until he turned into a ♥♥♥♥ who was only interested in perpetuating war. He misinterpreted the boss' will

And yea, those things you describe are morally grey at the very best and completely immoral at worst. He isnt a good guy.... It isn't hard to see that. But boss wasn't saving anyone in this game... He was only working towards his own interests