How did Solid ever beat Venom?

[Akumati]

I dunno man, according to the story, Solid snake beat Venom snake in a 1v1.

But after playing basically all the games except Portable ops, i don't think Solid snake would ever outmatch Venom, even if he was at his peak.

[Spartan448]

Solid Snake is on a level of skill approaching that of The Boss herself, the one character in the franchise who we *do* know for certain allowed herself to be killed. Canonically he was better at CQC than even Big Boss himself, and was even capable of besting Grey Fox, Foxhound's best man, not once but twice. Venom certainly isn't capable of holding up against someone who is basically younger, faster, stronger, better. Hell, it's apparent enough when you look and realize that Venom is only an A++ rank combat soldier. There are regular dudes out there who are better soliders than Venom is.

[FayeeRee22]

well solid snake is the main protagonist of the entire series....Protagonist always have plot shield to surpass anyone in his universe.

[Misha]

I still think Venom snake is kinda cute

[Spartan448]

İlk olarak Nothing. tarafından gönderildi:

Their story-building doesn't feel like they thought that far ahead (Or would that be behind?) with the twist in Phantom Pain. I can't reasonably see Venom Snake being killed by Solid Snake very easily. On the other hand, I can see the real Big Boss actually being defeated by Solid Snake, because he's been out of the loop for years, and chose to sit on his ass and let a body double do a good bulk of work while he went on to do his Zanzibar thing years later.

The only way I can really see it is they make yet another retcon and it turns out Venom Snake allowed himself to be killed as a way of getting back at Big Boss, and releasing himself from being his phantom, and pawn.

BB wasn't actually out of the loop. He was busy getting back into the US military and taking up his old position as head of the FOX unit, training the next elite group of soldiers... including Solid Snake himself.

Furthermore, Venom isn't all that impressive as a soldier compared to BB and Solid Snake. Look at the things Venom takes on: You have Quiet, who is the single least threatening sniper in the entire franchise, even moreso than Sniper Wolf who you could kill by just sitting behind a snowbank firing remote-controlled missiles at her; There are the Skulls, which have some fancy tricks, but are only really mildly threatening in a pack of four, and even then a single Gecko could take down a Skulls squad; And then there's the Metal Gear, which isn't really that impressive to the two guys who have fought *four* of them - one of which was done using another Metal Gear that had been disabled a few games earlier.

Meanwhile, BB has to deal with the Cobra Unit, each of whom on their own makes the Skulls unit seem like an insignificant inconvienence, and of course the Man On Fire back when he was the Gay Russian Man That Shoots Lightning Because Reasons.

On Solid Snake's side of things, we have Outer Heaven, consisisting of Venom, the TX-11 "Bloody Brad", Dirty Duck, Fire Trooper (who might as well have been Outer Heaven's The Fury), Machinegun Kid, and Shoot Gunner; Zanzibar Land, consisting of Grey Fox, Black Ninja, Running Man, Red Blaster, the Four Horsemen, Jungle Evil, Night Fright, and Big Boss; FOXHOUND, consisting of Grey Fox(again), Liquid, Psycho Mantis, Vulcan Raven, Sniper Wolf, and Sexpistol Ocelot; And finally, Outer Haven, consisting of the Snakehound unit, the most advanced special operations unit ever developed, Vamp, whose nanomachines made him akin to a vampire, and Liquid Ocelot, who happened because plot.

tl;dr: Venom isn't all that great, actually.

[Erebus]

İlk olarak Spartan448 tarafından gönderildi:

Furthermore, Venom isn't all that impressive as a soldier compared to BB and Solid Snake. Look at the things Venom takes on: You have Quiet, who is the single least threatening sniper in the entire franchise, even moreso than Sniper Wolf who you could kill by just sitting behind a snowbank firing remote-controlled missiles at her; There are the Skulls, which have some fancy tricks, but are only really mildly threatening in a pack of four, and even then a single Gecko could take down a Skulls squad; And then there's the Metal Gear, which isn't really that impressive to the two guys who have fought *four* of them - one of which was done using another Metal Gear that had been disabled a few games earlier.

Care to elaborate on like... all of those points.

Edit: I don't think comparing plot to gameplay conventions is exactly fair. If you are going to argue in-universe things you have to consider them more from the story aspect than the gameplay aspects.

Plot-wise the skulls ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up some of Miller's most capable men, Quiet head-shot a fighter pilot from a moving helicopter, and etc. Look at the ending of GZ what Venom survived and very likely saved BB from. The gameplay is easy yes, but Venom and the various characters in TPP from a plot-standpoint aren't slouches.

[Nothing.]

İlk olarak Erebus tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Spartan448 tarafından gönderildi:

Furthermore, Venom isn't all that impressive as a soldier compared to BB and Solid Snake. Look at the things Venom takes on: You have Quiet, who is the single least threatening sniper in the entire franchise, even moreso than Sniper Wolf who you could kill by just sitting behind a snowbank firing remote-controlled missiles at her; There are the Skulls, which have some fancy tricks, but are only really mildly threatening in a pack of four, and even then a single Gecko could take down a Skulls squad; And then there's the Metal Gear, which isn't really that impressive to the two guys who have fought *four* of them - one of which was done using another Metal Gear that had been disabled a few games earlier.

Care to elaborate on like... all of those points.

Considering that Venom Snake likely didn't come up the same way as Big Boss, being a spectacular soldier who was mentored by a legendary soldier and eventually surpassed her. Venom Snake's feats are quite impressive since he could essentially just be some regular recruit Big Boss fultoned in one day who happened to rise through the ranks.

If we're really going to be comparing boss fights, and enemies, at least try to keep it all within the proper dating. Sniper Wolf? Gekko? Why mention them? That's too far ahead to be relevant. Besides, I think it should also be known that boss fights, while flashy in the Metal Gear series, aren't exactly super hard if you have a firm grasp on how the game works. I mean, ♥♥♥♥, you can bullet dodge Revolver Ocelot in the original MGS, and stunlock Liquid Snake.

From an in-universe perspective ignoring how things play out in the actual game, sure, Big Boss fought more, but I still wouldn't say that completely overshadows what Venom Snake, probably a man with less than half the veteran experience the man he is a phantom of, achieved. That alone, regardless of how things play out in the game, is quite a spectacular feat by the end of the game.

[Setora]

There many way to take it, but after playing TPP, I have to say Venom story grow on me like how he lost his "life" to have a new one etc, same for Big Boss and his goal/dream.

Made me pretty much hate Solid Snake for what he have done, I don't think Venom let himself beat either, BB manipulated Solid Snake cause he knows they were going to send someone to attack Outer Heaven and his/their(cause 2 Big Boss lolz) Metal Gear, he just wanted Venom to beat Solid face that's what I believe in.

But story events didn't happen the way Big Boss wanted to, damn Solid Snake like Venom should have crush his face, use the explosive arm and explode his face, come on ><
WE so need a new Metal Gear Remake spinoff, idc who but someone has to make it!

Venom live, Venom become stronger and even better, and we end up in a world where Solid don't screw things up, Venom/BB team up and violently beat Liquid face that would be so cool and then we end up in MGS4 Remake with Venom vs Big Boss, that would be super cool.

I really like Venom now, I believe the character could have become very interesting at the end of TPP and the beginning of Outer Heaven, like he embrace the fact to be Big Boss, he would have acted more like a boss and less like a medic that doesn't talk, maybe some real demon big boss as well

[Shenoa]

İlk olarak Spartan448 tarafından gönderildi:

And then there's the Metal Gear, which isn't really that impressive to the two guys who have fought *four* of them - one of which was done using another Metal Gear that had been disabled a few games earlier.

Like I'm no expert on MGS and I lack a lot of the plot but I'm pretty sure Sahelanthropus could've rekt any Metal Gear in the series.

[Setora]

İlk olarak Shenoa tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Spartan448 tarafından gönderildi:

And then there's the Metal Gear, which isn't really that impressive to the two guys who have fought *four* of them - one of which was done using another Metal Gear that had been disabled a few games earlier.

Like I'm no expert on MGS and I lack a lot of the plot but I'm pretty sure Sahelanthropus could've rekt any Metal Gear in the series.

Knowing all the Metal Gear I can say yeah... This one would have destroy any other up to the most advanced one like the RAY.
I have to say Sahelanthropus is pretty scary when you fighting him, like it doesn't give you a second to rest, I guess it's because noone pilot it so it can do some crazy move and never stop like Liquid always talk while piloting REX, this one just want you dead.
I really liked the fight agaisnt Sahelanthropus.

[Okami]

İlk olarak DatBoss tarafından gönderildi:

Wait didn't Venom let himself, or was told by BB, to lose to make everyone believe BB was gone? As a cover up?

Nop. BB plan was to drag attention of cypher away from him, so he send Solid to Venom. the plan was also to "deal" with the sons of BB. yes, at the time, Liquid and Solid where the threat. both tool used by cypher to kill BB. it turns out that Solid was stronger and smarter than everyone else... without even knowing The Boss's will, he understood it

[omegazeda]

İlk olarak Okami tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak DatBoss tarafından gönderildi:

Wait didn't Venom let himself, or was told by BB, to lose to make everyone believe BB was gone? As a cover up?

Nop. BB plan was to drag attention of cypher away from him, so he send Solid to Venom. the plan was also to "deal" with the sons of BB. yes, at the time, Liquid and Solid where the threat. both tool used by cypher to kill BB. it turns out that Solid was stronger and smarter than everyone else... without even knowing The Boss's will, he understood it

We'll see.

[Okami]

İlk olarak omegazeda tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Okami tarafından gönderildi:

it turns out that Solid was stronger and smarter than everyone else... without even knowing The Boss's will, he understood it

We'll see.

We did => MGS4 ending.

[Son_Goku_34]

Solid Snake wins because, rather than having a comparable level of skill, he's more grounded than other snakes.

[omegazeda]

İlk olarak Keithan tarafından gönderildi:

Solid Snake wins because, rather than having a comparable level of skill, he's more grounded than other snakes.

Opposite of me irl i guess, i am ungrounded!

[Misa]

İlk olarak Misha tarafından gönderildi:

I still think Venom snake is kinda cute

They all lookthe same to me