METAL GEAR SOLID V: THE PHANTOM PAIN

METAL GEAR SOLID V: THE PHANTOM PAIN

Lil Larrikin Aug 31, 2024 @ 7:22pm
The end of Ocelot's "doublethink"
Retreading very old ground I know, but I'm curious to hear what everyone thinks.
Obviously at the end of the game we find out that Ocelot puts himself under hypnosis in order to trick himself into believing his own lie - that Venom wasn't actually Big Boss - but he also states that "when the time is right" he has to undo that hypnosis in order to remember the truth.
It seems that this hypnosis was performed on Kazuhira as well, as he was present when Big Boss first went into surgery after the attack on MSF in Ground Zeroes, thus he is aware (or should be) that Venom is the one missing an arm, having shrapnel stick out of his head, ect.
After Ocelot remembers the truth, he informs Kazuhira of the deception as well, leading Kaz to say something along the lines of "we still have a job to do, we better get used to coexisting," so we know that this is during some point after the formation of Diamond Dogs when they physically have to live together at Mother Base.

So my question is, when do we think Ocelot remembers the truth?
For my money I think that Ocelot was aware from the very beginning, which is why he is able to have a cigar with John (the real Big Boss) shortly after encountering Venom, who at this point is left unconscious in the ambulance, before returning to Venom in order to shepherd him to Afghanistan and rescue Miller. It explains why one of the game over lines is "maybe you're not the Big Boss we hoped for after all"
I think Kaz was informed either as soon as he got to Mother Base, or very soon after the death of Skullface, as he does genuinely seem to believe that Venom is Big Boss upon meeting him for the first time since his awakening but thereafter seems a lot more cold to Snake, and after the death of Skullface he seems to become a lot more paranoid about the concept of traitors in the ranks of DD.
What do you think?
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Showing 1-15 of 18 comments
abcd Aug 31, 2024 @ 7:40pm 
they're actually talking about working for opposing Patriot cells.

Ocelot is always looking down on Kazuhira as a 'non-believer.' He doesn't care about any of the weird stuff that happens, and doesn't see any of it as an extension of the battlefield/battle instinct. It's all science and technology to him. He doesn't see the burger for the restaurant.

Ocelot suggesting that he uses hypnosis is, as such, mocking Kazuhira's simplistic worldview.

One of the major themes of the game is the intersection of adulthood and childhood, Kaz believing that supernatural stuff is childish to believe in and Ocelot believing that Kaz's understanding of the world is childlike.

Ocelot was raised from birth as an elite, and is still second fiddle to Big Boss. Kaz is some chump they brought in, and who basically destroyed the entire organization himself. His naievete is laughable, practically. He genuinely believes in the US and in governing bodies, even in the wake of the Patriots. He's an idiot.

He couldn't just be stupid on purpose though, could he?

You know, like the Central Stupid Administration, the CIA slushpit he crawled out of.

Is Ocelot hypnotized, or is he just lying again?

Is this even Ocelot? He looks funny, like he's trying to convince everyone he's himself. None of them would know any better.

In that sense it's like a third-grade flunky talking to the second banana's bodydouble. They're on the same level, in that neither of them really rank as anyone. Yet they're in charge of Venom's cell by default, insofar as he fails to exert himself otherwise.

Has Ocelot ever not known the truth?

Also you're aware that Russia's "intelligence thing" is lying and the US's is acting stupid I assume. Also that Putin has more bodydoubles than actual policies, and people like Kaz are a dime a dozen. Just another Master of a slave pit.
Last edited by abcd; Aug 31, 2024 @ 8:02pm
Lil Larrikin Aug 31, 2024 @ 8:01pm 
Originally posted by abcd:
they're actually talking about working for opposing Patriot cells.

Ocelot is always looking down on Kazuhira as a 'non-believer.' He doesn't care about any of the weird stuff that happens, and doesn't see any of it as an extension of the battlefield/battle instinct. It's all science and technology to him. He doesn't see the burger for the restaurant.

Ocelot suggesting that he uses hypnosis is, as such, mocking Kazuhira's simplistic worldview.

One of the major themes of the game is the intersection of adulthood and childhood, Kaz believing that supernatural stuff is childish to believe in and Ocelot believing that Kaz's understanding of the world is childlike.

Ocelot was raised from birth as an elite, and is still second fiddle to Big Boss. Kaz is some chump they brought in, and who basically destroyed the entire organization himself. His naievete is laughable, practically. He genuinely believes in the US and in governing bodies, even in the wake of the Patriots. He's an idiot.

He couldn't just be stupid on purpose though, could he?

You know, like the Central Stupid Administration, the CIA slushpit he crawled out of.

First of all, by this point in the story Ocelot is 100% devoted to taking town the Patriots with BB. Any animosity between them isn't because of the Patriots, or even Cipher, but because of BB. Kaz understandably feels betrayed that he is ultimately nothing more than a prop for Venom to wield (and by extension Zero) in order to legitimize himself, being left out of the loop as to John's true motivations, and he returns to Cipher in order to train David to kill John.

Ocelot using hypnosis isn't some metaphor, it's the actual technique he uses multiple times throughout the series in order to incept certain ideas into his own mind to further his ultimate aims, like fooling himself into believing he was Liquid in order to take control of and subsequently shut down SOP.

Ocelot was raised from birth by the Philosophers, but his actual upbringing was in Soviet Russia. He's hardly an "elite" and actually expresses disdain at such notions when he is discussing Les Enfante Terribles with John. He's second fiddle to John only in terms of skill, otherwise they are peers. Ocelot is actually one of the only people that Big Boss truly trusted to see about dismantling the system that Zero had built. The circumstances in which John meets Kazuhira is remarkably similar to how he met Ocelot, winning their loyalty through besting them in a fight and Kaz is no slouch when it comes to fighting (he can use CQC even with one arm and leg) so I think the primary reason he's so mad at Big Boss is simply that he feels like he could have been more use than he was.
abcd Aug 31, 2024 @ 8:04pm 
Kaz has to be completely blind to himself to not see the hand he's dealt himself. Is he stupid? Paz seems cognizant of what she did. Huey is, even. Is Kaz Literally Retarded, or what? Maybe he's just playing dumb because he made this tape specifically for his brain trust leader to listen to.

It's literal ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Ocelot made up to pretend he isn't psychic. The Patriot AI is terrified of psychic spies; they've almost ruined everything several times. Every psychic in the series is selectively terminated, and the AI goes out of its way to try and disillusion onlookers whenever it does so.

He's literally the son of Boss and Sorrow, along with EVA. He spends most of 3 exploring his massive inferiority complex, and is second fiddle in every game including 4. He was supposed to kill Boss if Naked failed. Him or his sister.
Last edited by abcd; Aug 31, 2024 @ 8:10pm
Lil Larrikin Aug 31, 2024 @ 8:41pm 
Your dislike for the character is palpable. What is it about the burger master that irks you so?
As to your last point, if Snake failed to kill the Boss she probably would have been killed by either the MiGs she called in or XOF, as we know they shadowed Snake throughout Operation Snake Eater.
abcd Aug 31, 2024 @ 9:19pm 
she says it pretty plainly to snake, if you call her during the fight. either snake kills her, or the backup waiting at the mig in the lake kills her. the only question is whether snake survives.

the airstrike wouldn't kill her, they'd be hard-pressed to even find her. what's she going to do, stand still? does she have some kind of laser-guided tracking beacon in her butt, so that the missiles can't miss?

or is XOF just who was on the mig waiting for her. EVA and Ocelot.

And presumably Volgin, given they worked for him and Volgin's backstory matches Deadface's. Who else is going to clean up after them, some butthole ghost? Volgin's entire decision tree matches the Boss' exactly.

Kaz is stupid. that's what bugs me about him; he's genuinely dumb and doesn't think things through. on top of that he's a self-interested backstabber. what's not to dislike?
Last edited by abcd; Aug 31, 2024 @ 9:22pm
wmhenry Aug 31, 2024 @ 10:01pm 
This games kinda feel like a cipher civil war, who would you join a faction lead by a mad man, or Hal form 2001 Skull face maybe mad but he still more human then zeros AI.
Devsman Aug 31, 2024 @ 11:00pm 
I mean, by the time you're trying to smooth over retcons to thirty year old stories with like two dozen lines of dialog, by using literal brainwashing as a plot device, you are definitely well into suspension of disbelief territory.

Miller exists in MG2 literally just as an in-game gameplay hint hotline. Don't worry about it.
abcd Aug 31, 2024 @ 11:55pm 
Originally posted by wmhenry:
This games kinda feel like a cipher civil war, who would you join a faction lead by a mad man, or Hal form 2001 Skull face maybe mad but he still more human then zeros AI.

he's literally doing its dirty work for it. he breaks character and begs to die, just like ocelot eventually does. just like psycho mantis does. just like vamp, fortune, all of the mg1 and 2 mini-bosses, etc.

everyone's on the same side here. except solid snake, who is the only person the AI will allow to kill it. and is thus poised against the world, just like V is.
Last edited by abcd; Aug 31, 2024 @ 11:58pm
wolf0911145 Sep 1, 2024 @ 4:58am 
Originally posted by abcd:
Kaz has to be completely blind to himself to not see the hand he's dealt himself. Is he stupid? Paz seems cognizant of what she did. Huey is, even. Is Kaz Literally Retarded, or what? Maybe he's just playing dumb because he made this tape specifically for his brain trust leader to listen to.

It's literal ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Ocelot made up to pretend he isn't psychic. The Patriot AI is terrified of psychic spies; they've almost ruined everything several times. Every psychic in the series is selectively terminated, and the AI goes out of its way to try and disillusion onlookers whenever it does so.

He's literally the son of Boss and Sorrow, along with EVA. He spends most of 3 exploring his massive inferiority complex, and is second fiddle in every game including 4. He was supposed to kill Boss if Naked failed. Him or his sister.
WAIT! EVA IS OCELOT'S SISTER?!
Lil Larrikin Sep 1, 2024 @ 8:42am 
Originally posted by wolf0911145:
Originally posted by abcd:
Kaz has to be completely blind to himself to not see the hand he's dealt himself. Is he stupid? Paz seems cognizant of what she did. Huey is, even. Is Kaz Literally Retarded, or what? Maybe he's just playing dumb because he made this tape specifically for his brain trust leader to listen to.

It's literal ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Ocelot made up to pretend he isn't psychic. The Patriot AI is terrified of psychic spies; they've almost ruined everything several times. Every psychic in the series is selectively terminated, and the AI goes out of its way to try and disillusion onlookers whenever it does so.

He's literally the son of Boss and Sorrow, along with EVA. He spends most of 3 exploring his massive inferiority complex, and is second fiddle in every game including 4. He was supposed to kill Boss if Naked failed. Him or his sister.
WAIT! EVA IS OCELOT'S SISTER?!
No she isn't, this guy's just been hitting the phantom cigar a bit too much
Lil Larrikin Sep 1, 2024 @ 8:50am 
Originally posted by Devsman:
I mean, by the time you're trying to smooth over retcons to thirty year old stories with like two dozen lines of dialog, by using literal brainwashing as a plot device, you are definitely well into suspension of disbelief territory.


See the thing is you don't even need to have played the other games for this plot point to become relevant, you just need to play MGSV. Miller instructing Snake in MGS as a full able bodied man doesn't matter, what I am more interested in is the timeline of events as set by MGSV.
wolf0911145 Sep 1, 2024 @ 8:50am 
Originally posted by Slip on Nippon:
Originally posted by wolf0911145:
WAIT! EVA IS OCELOT'S SISTER?!
No she isn't, this guy's just been hitting the phantom cigar a bit too much
Geez, I thought I got fookin Kojima'd for a for a second.
Lil Larrikin Sep 1, 2024 @ 8:52am 
Originally posted by wmhenry:
This games kinda feel like a cipher civil war, who would you join a faction lead by a mad man, or Hal form 2001 Skull face maybe mad but he still more human then zeros AI.

Well, that is what it is. Zero sets up Diamond Dogs via Ocelot to take down Skull Face and Cipher, an errant chapter within the Patriots no longer under their control. Everything that happens in MGSV is certainly part of Zero's vision for the future, he just assumes that SOP will be able to internalize any issues arising from putting Venom and DD into play.
abcd Sep 1, 2024 @ 9:07am 
Originally posted by wolf0911145:
WAIT! EVA IS OCELOT'S SISTER?!

it is, slip just has a persistent brain defect that makes him unable to behave normally.
Lil Larrikin Sep 1, 2024 @ 9:09am 
Originally posted by abcd:
Originally posted by wolf0911145:
WAIT! EVA IS OCELOT'S SISTER?!

it is, slip just has a persistent brain defect that makes him unable to behave normally.
Go replay Snake Eater
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Date Posted: Aug 31, 2024 @ 7:22pm
Posts: 18