Is Hideo Kojima one of the most mediocre writers on the game industry?

[Missifu]

I say yes, and i got to commend the guy, because there are some big steaming garbage piles of games out there with plots and characters so stupid you start to wonder if an adult human being really wrote them, but the rubbish hes made up is top notch.

[Metric Guard]

If this is an attempt to top that other "KOJIMA SUX!!!1" thread in terms of verbosity whilst maintaining the same absence of substance, you technically succeeded, but you could do far better.

[Devsman]

I can understand why somebody would believe that if their only exposure to the guy is TPP and they don't realize that the last two or so decades' worth of cutscene-heavy story games are literally all descended his magnum opus Metal Gear Solid.

[~⁧⁧kapacb]

Bait

[Missifu]

Some people here seem to be on payroll from the department of public relations of the Kojima Productions company. Im sorry but Kojima has not "shone the light on to me", and after playing the game he has made after Metal Gear, the great work of art called Death Stranding (game i adquired for free and still bored me to death after 2 hours) i can assure that he is indeed an appalling writer.

He is (or was) a great game designer, the Metal Gear and then Metal Gear Solid series of games introduced some new innovative features and mechanics never seen on other games.

But with the pass of time at our side, if we dont suffer from a bliss of nostalgia we can see how the stories told on those games and as a series overall are just an incoherent mess. Theres a reason Kojima wanted to go onto film production and ended on the game industry, he is now an established figure in this sector and no matter if the game is bad, or the plotline is completely subpar, the game will sale just because of the overhype of having the name Kojima behind it.

And to end, this is a post on the MGSV hub, so lets talk about this game specifically and not the MGS series overall, can any of you Kojima sycophants point to 5 things on this game that make it a great storytelling piece?

[beatles42o]

1, its an epilogue, of a prologue, that is ALSO another prologue for another game, while also being an epilogue for another. some people really like that rick and morty ♥♥♥♥

2. the presentation and delivery is pretty good. its all a bit artistic.

3. a bit of an interactive progression. there is a lot of side plots between further delivery of core story. that guy you save, the bionics dude? he actually goes to mother base.

4. atmosphere, you can get a lot from the world around you thats entirely optional. first time playing i thought soldiars were losing thier minds, or confusing "going in naked" i was expecting quite to be uh, pretty much neked. this is pretty common through out the game.

5. we dont get enough fun cold war era stuff. so much WWII, some vietnam, even now a couple WWI games.

but the cold war in it self really wasnt a war, hense it being cold. so the whole james bond escape from new york vibe is pretty awesome, and to deny MGS thematics in relation to 60s-70s spy thrillers which only compliments the cold war era commie fighting mercenaries.

involving the mujadadeen after the jungles from russia. a bit of a sixth point but hit on it a bit.

cold war proxy commie wars. yes, more games like this please.

5.

[abcd]

Ron wrote the final script.

[Stinkyremy]

He is an ideas man.
he has good ideas and the tech from the team is often good but his writing is hackey and often just copied from multiple movie sources.

[Metric Guard]

Originally posted by Missifu:

Theres a reason Kojima wanted to go onto film production

Funny you say that considering Kojima now has the connections (i.e. he's friends with some of the world's most talented and respected filmmakers) to easily enter the film industry, only he stated his refusal to make a movie specifically because he'd rather keep making games.

Originally posted by Missifu:

can any of you Kojima sycophants point to 5 things on this game that make it a great storytelling piece?

Sure. I'll also challenge myself by avoiding the easy answers and instead bring up some less discussed examples.

1) Urgency

A problem with some games—particularly common in open world games—is the dissonance between the urgency within the main story and the player's ability to meander and go on unrelated adventures without consequences. MGSV avoids this problem by pairing its most pressing scenarios with a time limit, but the best and most clear example is when a mysterious pathogen infects Diamond Dogs.

At that point, many DD staff will die if you don't focus on finishing the main missions. There's a way to slow the spread by quarantining DD staff based on a factor that shouldn't be terribly difficult to determine, especially if you've been paying close attention to the narrative and themes. Regardless, Diamond Dogs will remain dramatically weaker and in constant danger until a cure is found.

Of course, the pathogen turns out to be parasites that kill people based on language—a powerful metaphor that speaks for itself—but the real kicker is that the outbreak is a direct result of Diamond Dogs' actions in Episode 13, which leads to my next example.

2) "Rescue the Intel Agents"

There's actually some buildup to Episode 17, and it's done without halting gameplay.

Diamond Dogs is far from the first victims of the vocal cord parasites, as it previously wreaked havoc among the African PFs. After finishing Episode 13, the PFs can be heard talking about the disease and think it might be linked to a mysterious armed group that recently began operating in the region. It's easy to assume this group is Cipher, but the PFs believe Diamond Dogs is responsible for the outbreak, resulting in the events of Episode 17.

3) "Blood Runs Deep"

One of MGSV's most prominent themes is truth. In relation to this, things aren't always as they seem at first, which this mission showcases brilliantly. Diamond Dogs is tasked with assassinating 6 soldiers, one of them being among the enemy PF and the rest being held prisoner at Kungenga Mine. However, when the prisoners at the mine are revealed to be children, Snake seemingly complies with the order to kill them, but he instead fakes the kids' deaths and rescues them.

Upon returning to Mother Base, this heroic act instantly takes a very dark turn when Snake reveals his intention to make the kids into soldiers. It's a pretty chilling moment, and even Kaz is disgusted, instead suggesting to rehabilitate the kids so they can live normal lives, which Snake begrudgingly allows. Still, even after Kaz shuts down the idea of utilizing child soldiers, there's this unease created by their mere presence on the stronghold of a military force who, as it turns out, are exactly who the kids wish to emulate.

4) Child Soldiers

Easily the most believable depiction of children, not just child soldiers, I've seen in any game. It's hard to explain, but if you've ever seen pictures or footage of real child soldiers, you should understand exactly what I mean. The behaviors, animations, designs, and vocal performances of MGSV's child soldiers are extremely convincing.

As the PF soldiers drop like flies, the kids they've been training for war, who aren't affected by the parasites, end up forming their own armed groups and rebel against the adults. Child soldiers technically make their first appearance in the very first Africa mission, but Episodes 23 and 25 are when they're actual enemies.

Although you're not allowed to kill the children—a single lethal attack is instantly fatal and results in a game over—you can otherwise deal with them however you wish. Whether they're being shot at with a non-lethal weapon, knocked down with CQC, or interrogated, it feels so wrong to treat these kids like any other soldier. Similarly, seeing kids being so ruthless and bloodthirsty. despite also acting like the children they are, is very disturbing, as is the number of players who genuinely desire the ability to kill the child soldiers without triggering a failure state.

Ultimately, Diamond Dogs' attempt to lead the kids to peaceful lives unfortunately (and unsurprisingly) doesn't end well, resulting in several children escaping (and subsequently being recovered) followed by a final departure orchestrated by Eli. Perhaps things would've been different if the kids weren't being rehabilitated by the very group they want to mimic—right down to wanting revenge against the people that murdered their families—but alas, Big Boss and his Diamond Dogs passed their sins onto a new generation.

5) D-Dog

He's a good boy who's like the Soliton Radar of MGSV, only with teeth and other additional functions, but there's more to him than that. You see, he's called D-Dog, but he's very clearly a wolf. It's super obvious once you see through the lie, and illustrates Diamond Dogs' warped perception of themselves.

Anyway, I could go on but this post is already quite long. Hopefully you find my response to be satisfactory and enlightening.

[~⁧⁧kapacb]

Still baiting

[Missifu]

Originally posted by beatles42o:

1, its an epilogue, of a prologue, that is ALSO another prologue for another game, while also being an epilogue for another. some people really like that rick and morty ♥♥♥♥

The game being a prequel does not make it good nor bad, well, it just goes to show the mess MGS is, the 3rd being a prequel and then the 5th installment aswell.

Originally posted by beatles42o:

2. the presentation and delivery is pretty good. its all a bit artistic.

Your 2nd point, i dont really understand what you mean by delivery, you mean the cutscenes, the way you transit through the game, the ambience and scenery? If so i would say the game starts good but goes downhill in terms of delivery with almost all the interactions between "main" characters being on top of the oil rig or in the hollow interrogation room, giving you a feeling of sterility and artificialness, with the protagonist barely talking at all (not enough money to pay Mr Sutherland LOL) which i wouldnt mind in most cases but on this one it only adds up to the whole thing making it even worse. Also i will not forget the dreaded cassete tapes recordings wich got hundreds of minutes on them and are crucial to get a whole picture of whats going on the game which, again, goes to show the laziness from the developers part. Also having rolling credits that spoil you the enemies that you will encounter on every mission is bad delivery (rolling credits which by the way you get at the start and end of every mission! and a very long credit roll at the end of every chapter too because of i guess some vanity or self congratulating fetish from Mr Kojimas end).

Originally posted by beatles42o:

3. a bit of an interactive progression. there is a lot of side plots between further delivery of core story. that guy you save, the bionics dude? he actually goes to mother base.

Theres no interactive progression at all, most side plots are time wasters and the Diamond Dogs members are just "numbers", like the bionics scientist you extract (and for that matter everyone you extract besides Miller and Emmerich) are just numbers to add up to your management base operations tool, theres no interactions with them at all, no affinity or affection for them whatsoever why should i care about some guys i extracted (which i could have killed) or people that volunteer to join up when i have no relation to them, you can even extract kojima (lmao) he says some phrase and you never see him again and dont care what happens to him after that. As i said they are just numbers that, by the way, drop like flies on the combat deployment missions, so theres that.

Originally posted by beatles42o:

4. atmosphere, you can get a lot from the world around you thats entirely optional. first time playing i thought soldiars were losing thier minds, or confusing "going in naked" i was expecting quite to be uh, pretty much neked. this is pretty common through out the game.

Same like last point, its literally an empty open world, its vastness only matched by its emptyness, like you would expect that during the soviet invasion of Afghanistan you would see skirmishes between the local militias and soviet soldiers, but you dont get any of that at all, you even get a mission of "helping the mujahideen" by destroying armored convoys of russian troops, but you dont see even a speck of the opposing forces, the only interaction you get with the locals is some prisioner that gives you information. I mean, you are on a conflict area but theres no conflict at all, quite interesting.

So as i say this game is emptier than FarCry (and thats saying something), you are just a mercenary group that doesnt have any type of contact with the people that adquire your services.

Originally posted by beatles42o:

5. we dont get enough fun cold war era stuff. so much WWII, some vietnam, even now a couple WWI games.

Thats a thing i could agree with, theres not many games set on the cold war era, but when the delivery is so bad, you really dont get a feeling that the game is set during the cold war at all, no? Like on this game as opposed to other installments on the series theres no spy games, no political drama in between the scenes, so you are just a guy doing covert operations on Afghanistan with no foreseeing aims (on Africa at least you are there with the excuse of investigating Skull Faces actions).

In conclusion, apart from the game looking like its incomplete its script is also a mess, you can clearly see they got bored halfway through the game when they start giving you the same main missions again with some stupid modifiers, something like that should be a replayability option not something mandatory you got to do to advance on the story, same with some "important" side quests that are the same and also are mandatory. So, this game was supposed to tie the events of MGS3 with those of MGS4, ¿What happened to Big Boss after operation Snake Eater?, ¿How did the Big Boss from MGS3 ended being the Big Boss from MGS4?, well theres definitely no answer to that, in fact it only makes more difficult to explain everything else, especially with the, surprising and wow so subvertive!! ending, which honestly wasnt surprising at all to me i can smell this guys intentions miles away with his plot twists and literary devices (the "TRUTH" ending is dumb). I also find funny that to get the whole context and situation of whats happening you need to have played some minor spin off PSP games (Portable Ops, PeaceWalker) and Ground Zeroes which by the way, was sold as an almost full priced game despite being a demo of MGS5.

[Missifu]

Originally posted by Metric Guard:

Funny you say that considering Kojima now has the connections (i.e. he's friends with some of the world's most talented and respected filmmakers) to easily enter the film industry, only he stated his refusal to make a movie specifically because he'd rather keep making games.

Yes he could call his friend Del Toro and make a film, but me and you know he doesnt do that because he probably wouldnt have the backing to make a really big film with a really big budget, like honestly who would hire a "rookie" japanese script writer for a movie of those characteristics, and also going to films would mean risking failing and crashing, ¿why would he go and make films if he can just keep earning millions doing games with almost unlimited resources an already gigantic budgets? but let's stop making assumptions.

Going back to the main subject, im sorry but i dont find any of those reasonings compelling at all, ill answer them all quickly.

This sense of urgency you write about, where is it? As i said on my other response, the people on that platform are just numbers, i couldnt care less and the Big Boss didnt seem to care that much either just because they added an scene in the end of the game of him eating (LMAO) and rubbing on his body the ashes of the deceased members changes nothing. They are some people on a portrait that says "Death by disease", theres urgency on a game like L.A Noire when youve discovered the culprit of a crime and you have to chase after him, or when theres a hostage situation and you need to safe them, in that game it works well because it actualy makes you feel like the protagonist is a real police detective solving a case, thats good storytelling. On this game well, not quite at all, theres really no attachment at all with your "dear comrades" since you cant do anything besides punching them or shooting them with sleeping darts on mother base, no talking no doing anything together. You can play as them on your missions but it doesnt make any difference they could be some faceless droids for that matter an it would play the same part.


Next points you make are about some forgettable rescue mission, the parasites and the child soldiers. The part about "actions have consequences" doesnt make it a good storytelling piece by itself if its layed down poorly, the parasites are there as an explanation for the stupid paranormal stuff, the parasites are just the new nanomachines so they can have all that boring SOYence talk on the cassete tapes drilling "vocal cord parasites" on your head every 5 seconds, the constant and recurring mention of the parasites on the dialogues is dismal.

Then theres the kids, the only interaction you get with the kids is in reality with only 1 of the kids, that being Liqu.. er sorry Eli, which is simply an annoying brat with parental issues that doesnt give you a feeling of being a real depiction of a child soldier at all. And again im sorry, but i dont have the slight care about the kids the best part of that was beating them up and nothing else, they could drop them on the ocean and nobody would care, theres no attachment, no connection or any type of closeness to those kids, you dont even see Miller talk or have any type of human interaction with those kids he so desperately wants to save. I dont really see whats "so believable " about these child soldiers in all honesty. Then theres the whole thing about Kaz of "I hate kids, but deep down i see myself reflected on them and i dont want for them what happened to me" i dont find any of that interesting or great storytelling, he just wants some child soldiers to be integrated in society, so? Something weve already seen on this game series already! theres a game called Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance where they already touch those themes but on a much well done manner. And since i brought up Revengeance i find more believable those child brains on jars than the child soldiers from MGSV, also on revengeance although i find annoying one of the kids you save (George) you at least see the connection between the main character (Raiden) and the child (they actually talk) and you can feel he is sincerely concerned for his well-being. Thats a game you can beat on 4hrs and has far greater storytelling and more in-game interactions between the main characters than in MGSV which if you stick only to the mandatory missions is like 40 hours.

The dog part im not even gonna write a proper response (yes, we even hear emmerich saying it), like honestly not trying to sound disrespectful but its yet another stupid metaphor that nobody cares just like i dont care about the damn dog either. All in all in essence thats what Kojimas works are all about, everything is a metaphor, everything is picked from an 80s movie or show, etc. Thats why, when authors that, on a very repetitive manner always use the same rhetorical devices and figures of speech they were called "mediocre" hence the title of this discussion, no more no less.

[Devsman]

Originally posted by Missifu:

Ground Zeroes which by the way, was sold as an almost full priced game despite being a demo of MGS5.

1. It sold at $30, exactly half of the standard launch price at the time.

2. It had a unique map, unique cutscenes, unique dialog and voice acting, and had multiple missions.

3. Unlike TPP, it was actually a good game.

[Missifu]

And on another note, where did all the famous MGS cinematic story-telling cutscenes went on Phantom Pain? The longest i remember is the 6 minutes of Skull Face babbling sermon, although not a cinematic per se we could say it was an in-game cinematic.

[Missifu]

Originally posted by Devsman:

1. It sold at $30, exactly half of the standard launch price at the time.

True they actually lowered the prices for that one:

"Konami is dropping the price of the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One versions of Metal Gear Solid 5: Ground Zeroes by $10, from $39.99 to $29.99 for both the retail and digital versions, the publisher announced today."

Still, for me that game is really just a demo if you stick to the main story its barely 2 hours and everything else is just the same as MGSV, it couldve been added to the main version of the game, this for me was just another type of predatory behaviour from Konamis part. I mean this is a company that sales pachinkos it shouldnt surprise anyone they try to maximize profits with that type of ♥♥♥♥, you just need to look at the monetization on MGSV.

[Original Cast Recording]

I've honestly never been entirely clear how much of the writing HK did personally and how much was more overseen, directed, guided, approved, etc.

Did he write every story beat, dialog, codec call---everything? If so, yeah, that'd be all-in-all an achievement. The fact that MGS kind of doesn't always make sense isn't even at odds with some of the themes in the series, IMO.